Newbie having a hard time with RPM

[Juballa]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

My preference is that if the effect can be built without using Altered Traits, that we don't use the Altered Traits modifier. Building out a ritual with Altered Traits tends to slow the game down more so than building out a ritual during play normally does. Thereby ...

Oh, I get what you're saying about slowing the game down!

Can you give some examples where Altered Traits is required, in your opinion?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Juballa

Given that duration is a factor that the caster pays for regardless of whether the effect is considered intrinsic to the Spell Effect or whether it's an Altered Trait, why would this affect the decision about whether an Altered Trait is required?

Let me try again, if your spell would cover the effect without Altered Traits then built it as such. For example, a spell to "awaken" a computer (this was in the open call for ritual submissions for the RPM book so I feel confidant about posting this here) is built thusly:

Computerized Ally
Spell Effects: Greater Control Energy + Greater Create Mind.
Inherent Modifiers: None.
Greater Effects: 2 (¥5).

This is typically cast as a charm – usually an inexpensive flash drive, to avoid suspicion. When the drive is inserted into the USB port of a computer, the machine immediately “awakens.” For the next hour, it is treated as an intelligent being with IQ equal to twice its Complexity (p. B472), minimum 8.
It will happily and completely obey the person who triggered the spell. This includes finding (and decrypting) its files, running programs, and volunteering any information of which it would have a record. For example, it would know which users had logged in recently, but it could not say who was standing next to that user. (Though if a webcam was functional at the time, it may have video.) The GM should play the computer as an eager, intelligent person, not as a literal-minded automaton!

Typical Casting: Greater Control Energy (5) + Greater Create Mind (6) + Lesser Control Magic (5) + Duration, 1 hour (3). 95 energy (19 ¥ 5).


So you wouldn't add Altered Traits, IQ Bonus (etc.) - the spell would take care of all that.

Hope that helps some.

Ghostdancer

[Juballa]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Computerized Ally

[snip]

So you wouldn't add Altered Traits, IQ Bonus (etc.) - the spell would take care of all that.

I accept that's the author's intent. But if this spell can do all of that (no need for IQ or the various ads that make a computer what it is, in GURPS terms, nor any need to remove any of the disads that prevent every computer from being like this anyway), then when would Altered Traits ever be needed to add an advantage or remove a disadvantage?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Juballa

I accept that's the author's intent. But if this spell can do all of that (no need for IQ or the various ads that make a computer what it is, in GURPS terms, nor any need to remove any of the disads that prevent every computer from being like this anyway), then when would Altered Traits ever be needed to add an advantage or remove a disadvantage?

I'm not sure how to answer this, much of RPM is under the purview of the GM. If the GM says a spell can do such and such then it can. If the GM says it needs Altered Traits...then it does.

I'm gonna hit the summon PK button and see if he can 'splain it better.

Ghostdancer

[Christopher R. Rice]

I also want to point out that RPM is a pretty subjective system, there are literally dozens of ways to build a particular effect. I've always gone by "feel" to determine what a given effect was needed but that's just me.

[Juballa]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I'm not sure how to answer this...

I appreciate your efforts to enlighten me! I'm afraid I'm just "not getting it" on some fundamental level.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Juballa

I appreciate your efforts to enlighten me! I'm afraid I'm just "not getting it" on some fundamental level.

Why don't you go through the process of designing a spell and then posting it and maybe I can get a whiff of how you create spells. For instance, last game session my girlfriend wanted to create a spell that would allow her to instantly get to the other side of the tactical board, so we came up with this:

Greater Create Crossroads (6) + Area of Effect, 1 yard (2) + Range, 50 yards, extra-dimensional* (18) + Speed, 50 yards (8) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 111 energy (37x3 energy).


This basically let her open up a portal to the another spot 50 yards away. I could also have built it like this:

Greater Strengthen Body (3) + Altered Traits, Modified Warp** (180) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 558 energy (186x3 energy).


* In the setting the only way gates can be created is by going through the Dreamlands.
** Warp (Gyroscopic, +10%; Range Limit, 100 yards, -10%; Reduced Range 1/2, -10%; Reliable 10, +50%; Tunnel, +40%) [180].

The first example is just easier to GM on the fly and "feels" better.

Ghostdancer

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Juballa

Can you give some examples where Altered Traits is required, in your opinion?

{In My Games}

(a) "This ritual buffs the target's ST by 2."
(b) "This ritual makes my friends stronger."

(a) requires the Altered Traits modifier. (b) does not.

Yes, this means (a) is more expensive than (b) even though both are Lesser Strengthen Body rituals; however, (a) is a known value while (b)'s value is determined by the referee at the time of casting.

Contrast with:
(c) "This ritual lets my friends breathe underwater."

(c) can be built in a number of ways. If built as a Greater Transform Body (represented by either giving them gills or by simply letting them inhale water as if it was breathable air), I would require the Altered Traits modifier. The ability to breathe water is made innate to the ritual's targets. If built as a Greater Transform Matter (represented as transmuting inhaled water into breathable air), on the other hand, I would not require Altered Traits. The result is the same in both cases, but the way of getting there is different and the consequences of how you get there is also important.

(The first (c) doesn't result in them exhaling normally, for example. Water in, water out. The second (c) does. Water in, air out.)

Does that help?

So, question...

If I want a spell that causes lightning to shoot out of my fingers to cause 3d damage, it's a Greater Create Energy for 6x3 = 18 minimum energy; but if I want to cause my subject's spleen to explode for 3d damage, it's a Lesser Destroy Body - lesser because it's subtle and believable?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Fez

So, question...

If I want a spell that causes lightning to shoot out of my fingers to cause 3d damage, it's a Greater Create Energy for 6x3 = 18 minimum energy;

Yes.

Originally Posted by Fez

but if I want to cause my subject's spleen to explode for 3d damage, it's a Lesser Destroy Body - lesser because it's subtle and believable?

Yes. the upcoming RPM book will go into this in detail. I usually don't let anything go beyond 4d or so for that. You (or your GM's) mileage may very.

Ghostdancer