[DF] Talents for the Standard Templates

[b-dog]

Ultimately I think if that the thief were just better at picking the locks than the wizard it makes things work better. A player with a wizard with the spell Lockmaster is not happy if all the locks are meteoric but if the locks are really difficult to open and the thief is clearly better at Lockpicking then the player will not feel so snubbed. If things are contrived against the wizard then player of a wizard may not be happy because he feels that the DM went great lengths to hose him.

[Kromm]

Well, Lockmaster does take all the same penalties that Lockpicking does . . . that's right there in the description of the spell. My experience as a fantasy GM is that wizards tend to have 50+ spells at the 1-point level, and that even those with IQ 15 and Magery 3 leave Lockmaster at 16. Thieves, whose main job this is, typically go for Lockpicking 20+, and at least when I'm the GM, I allow DX-based rolls that add High Manual Dexterity, which is why DF 2, p. 8 says "It's traditional in dungeon fantasy for lockpicking to be a fiddly physical task, so this skill roll is DX-based, and gets High Manual Dexterity bonuses." A DF 1 wizard with 1 point in Lockmaster has a 16; a thief built per the template is rolling at 17 using the rules in DF 2, and has more of an incentive to be good at that one skill.

It sounds to me as if a good part of the solution would be for the GM to point out to wizard players that they could spend points on spells that do stuff that other people can't do, and to crank up levels with spells that can't afford to fail even once, so that wizards mostly aren't kicking Lockmaster up to stupid levels. He could also enforce skill penalties on Lockmaster as well as on Lockpicking, and remember that the thief can bring DX and High Manual Dexterity into play. And he could remind the thief that HMD is a great investment that benefits all Pickpocket and Sleight of Hand rolls and (per DF 2) the majority of Lockpicking and Traps rolls, and can go up to six levels for thieves (DF 11, p. 35).

[Anthony]

The thing is, there's really nothing wrong, conceptually, with a character who uses magic instead of a lockpick to open locks, or really, any other role. The problem is that for a wizard the cost of being effective in many areas is only marginally higher than the cost of being effective in a single area, and thus the entire design of GURPS Magic encourages stepping on other people's schticks, because that's what magic is actually best at doing (well, that and casting Destroy Plot spells).

[martinl]

Two things I find useful for this sort of issue:

Thresh-Based Mana (I'm old enough to still think of it as "Unlimited Mana"): encourages wizards to focus on big flashy stuff or outright free stuff rather than the middle ground.

Make all magery college/school based, (or use powers instead of spells). The default use of GURPS magic is good if you want high-point mages to be able to do everything well.

The standardized "Class" talents approach bugs me for several reasons:

There are already enough class based FRPGs. I know this is a feature for some, but not for me.

It makes the difference between what you are good at and everything else a little too stark. I don't mind fence-protected niches, but the nuclear minefield full of hungry Rancors-protected niche may be a bit too strong.

It changes the way all the non-mage templates do things in order to deal with a problem that mages bring to the table.

[Bruno]

One thing I've standardized in my games when using GURPS Magic is that the mana level fluctuates - higher levels give a skill bonus, lower levels give a skill penalty, and it's a bit challenging to plan for.

The mage who uses magic to replace mundane skill knowledge is absolutely a viable character, but he has to be prepared to face penalties up to -6 on his spell rolls from time to time (and bonuses up to +6 from time to time as well). He's unpredictable but averages "as written". The mundane expert is consistent and is much harder to have his abilities interfered with.

Sometimes the wizard blows the door off. Sometimes the wizard waves his hand and has nothing happen but a fizzle of sparks and a comical sound. The thief is straightforward.

[b-dog]

OK, here is another idea for solving the Magery problem.

The first 5 points of Magery allows the wizard the ability to cast spells outside of a high mana zone.

The second 10 points is the power level as are each extra 10 points. They do not increase spell skill as all spells are learned based on IQ.

Then there are Talents for Magery. Each college has it's own Talent so the Fire college will have Fire Talent and this can be learned at 5pts/level, the Water College has Water Talent at 5pts/level and so on. Thus the wizard can focus his talent to become a Frire Mage or whatever. This allows spells like Lockmaster to be learned at lower levels unless the Wizard bought Movement Talent from the Movement College.

This way the wizard tends to specialize and have some spells known at high levels while other spells that are outside of his specialty are learned at lower levels.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Bruno

One thing I've standardized in my games when using GURPS Magic is that the mana level fluctuates - higher levels give a skill bonus, lower levels give a skill penalty, and it's a bit challenging to plan for.

The mage who uses magic to replace mundane skill knowledge is absolutely a viable character, but he has to be prepared to face penalties up to -6 on his spell rolls from time to time (and bonuses up to +6 from time to time as well). He's unpredictable but averages "as written". The mundane expert is consistent and is much harder to have his abilities interfered with.

Sometimes the wizard blows the door off. Sometimes the wizard waves his hand and has nothing happen but a fizzle of sparks and a comical sound. The thief is straightforward.

That was one of the cool things with DCC. The wizard spells function based on the amount of success the roll is made by. So if the wizard barely makes his roll then not much happens but is succedes by a high margin then amazing things can happen. If he fails then disasterous things can happen.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by b-dog

OK, here is another idea for solving the Magery problem.

<SNIP>

This way the wizard tends to specialize and have some spells known at high levels while other spells that are outside of his specialty are learned at lower levels.

This approach could certainly work. I'd probably combine it with ritual modifiers and other TDMs to help them bump skill a little (just as other niches invest in Good equipment and seek favorable conditions). Keeping Magery at [10] per level may be a bit steep; if all it does is serve as an Unusual Background governing spell access and how much energy can be spent on some spells, I'd consider dropping it to [5/lv]. Likewise, a single-College Talent should probably be [5/lv], meaning that for the same price as RAW Magery, a wizard can improve his potential spell-casting power and his skill within one College.

[Gnome]

The problem isn't that the wizard steals the thief's thunder. If there's a thief in the party, the wizard probably doesn't bother to buy Lockmaster, because he knows that the thief's got it.
The problem is that no one wants to play a thief in the first place, because he's weak compared with the other classes. In my play group, people decide together who's going to play what. I'll be the knight, you be the cleric, okay we need another front-line guy and a utility guy, etc. If anyone suggests thief, people look at the potential problems that may need solving in a typical dungeon crawl and say "Why not just be a wizard instead? You can still pick locks if needed, the cleric can already find traps with See Secrets, plenty of other guys have Stealth for scouting the enemy or making sneak attacks, and as a wizard you'll have much more effective ways to contribute to combat (e.g. Great Haste on the fighter)."
The thief seems like he could be fun, but he's really not that great at anything of essential importance. A powerful Talent could help with this by making the thief really awesome at what he does for fewer points.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Gnome

The problem is that no one wants to play a thief in the first place, because he's weak compared with the other classes.

I agree with this. Either the other classes' abilities cost too little, incentivizing them, or the Thief's abilities cost too much.

I do think it is, in part at least, because of the fact that the Thief's abilities are so easily imitated. Most classes can sneak, and then the spellcasters can easily handle everything the Thief can. A Wizard has high IQ, and I've often put some points from Quirks into thieving abilities when I play a Wizard. If the Swashbuckler does the same with the DX abilities, then there's really no point to having a Thief in the party.

It's a matter of division of labor. It just doesn't make much sense, the way things are priced, to have someone that specializes in various IQ- and DX-based skills like that when you already have other party members with high IQs and DXs.

And that's before even getting into spells like Wizard Eye, Lockmaster, See Secrets, Body of Air, Ethereal Body, Invisibility, Mage-Stealth, Shapeshifting, and Shape Earth that so easily duplicate the Thief's abilities.

But I think there's another thing going on there: those thieving abilities just are not worth a whole character. They're worth a fraction of a character. And that's why people are reticent to play one. No matter how good a Thief you are, you still need something else on top of that. Like what we see with the Artificer or the Ninja or the Wizard. They can cover those Thief abilities to some degree, but they also get something else nice on top of it. I think 'Thief' is too narrow and needs to be expanded. Give the Thief something else to do. Now, it might be the case that this could easily be accomplished with the idea of a broad Talent, like what the Artificer gets. Lower the IQ to 12 and the DX to 13 and replace those with a Talent, then use the saved points on something else. Maybe make them very good at some combat niche, rather than still worse than the Knight or Thief. Or something.

Edit:

I would start with the following:

-2 DX
-1 IQ
+4 levels of Thief Talent

Thief Talent [5/level]
Escape, Climbing, Stealth, Lockpicking, Traps, Poisons

That saves you at least forty character points.