[DF] Talents for the Standard Templates

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I think the middle ground is to have the wizard with Lockmaster be good and useful but the thief is the expert at picking locks.

I don't know how you can do that while leaving the only price for the wizard at three character points and one or two energy per lock.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am sort of curious as to why they had Magery add to the spell skill level.

Because GURPS Magic is a sacred cow legacy system? It predates 3rd edition and may go all the way back to 1st edition (I don't have 1e and very limited 2e), it's got visible similarities to the system in Wizard (TFT).

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

I don't know how you can do that while leaving the only price for the wizard at three character points and one or two energy per lock.

The GURPS Wizard template has IQ 15 and Magery 3. The wizard has a lot of spells to learn so he probably only puts 1 point into it at that gives him skill 16 with Lockmaster. The GURPS Thief template has DX 15 and if he can get a talent of Cat Burglar for 5 prints per level he can buy 3 levels or more putting him in the same standing as the wizard in being able to pick locks. But since he has less skills to learn for his class than the wizard has spells to learn, he can focus more on the Lockpicking skill and maybe get it up to 20. He does not need to use fatigue and does not need mana to be abke to pick the lock so most of the time he is the one to pick the lock, especially if the lock is more difficult to pick. But the wizard can pick locks if the thief is hurt or if they want to open the lock from a distance.

[Carlos]

Originally Posted by b-dog

The GURPS Wizard template has IQ 15 and Magery 3. The wizard has a lot of spells to learn so he probably only puts 1 point into it at that gives him skill 16 with Lockmaster. The GURPS Thief template has DX 15 and if he can get a talent of Cat Burglar for 5 prints per level he can buy 3 levels or more putting him in the same standing as the wizard in being able to pick locks. But since he has less skills to learn for his class than the wizard has spells to learn, he can focus more on the Lockpicking skill and maybe get it up to 20. He does not need to use fatigue and does not need mana to be abke to pick the lock so most of the time he is the one to pick the lock, especially if the lock is more difficult to pick. But the wizard can pick locks if the thief is hurt or if they want to open the lock from a distance.

Yes, he can do that and can do dozens of other options (like track down people).

Wizards speciality is to steal others job's niche (with the exception of the "meat shields"¹).


¹ - Actually they can do that if they have imbues.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

You can limit wizards in other ways, but that has issues:

Take away Lockmaster? Great, the wizard can't unlock doors. ST becomes even more useful, because Lockpicking attempts take a minute . . . and failed attempts require a roll with a penalty.

I still prefer my method of solving this issue, with replacing the spell with a similar one that allows the wizard to gain access to locked rooms - but doesn't address the locked door at all.

Also, due to throw backs from D&D I always run Lockpicking as a DX skill, and have it take 1 min, with -5 seconds per MoS and +20 seconds per MoF (crit fails break picks and increase the penalty if attempted again). As I hate making players roll numerous times for the same repetitive task, once you've failed its not like you're going to be succeeding within "combat time" so just allowing one roll to cover picking the lock is much less intrusive to play. (unless you break your picks, but that's at least an interesting outcome). {I should point out that attempting to unlock something which you can only succeed at with a crit success just fails after 5 mins if you didn't roll a crit, rather than auto-succeeding just because you tried.}


Either way I agree that the problem of niche invasion from wizards is not from Magery making their spells too easy - but its more that Magic allows them to perform so much of what others can do, often in more convenient ways. Even if you allow everyone else to have massive skill levels, and force the wizard to exist in a perpetual LMZ, the wizard is still able to open locks from a distance (avoiding contact poisons and traps built into the locks at the same time) - something the thief will never be able to do!

The solution, imo, is to ban or alter spells which literally steal the limelight from other professions outright - and encourage party cooperation, pretty much the same way you keep D&D wizards from spoiling the party really.

It also helps to keep in mind all of the penalties wizards might suffer from, inclusive of counter magic - I mean Magelock does still resist Lockmaster after all, and it makes sense on expensive locks to have that built in to the lock or cast on every key for it. Reducing the cost of Magelock is more likely to have an impact on wizards than increasing the cost of Lockmaster, as it means they're more likely to run into that counter defence.


Sadly, and this goes for GURPS and D&D alike (and pretty much any other rpg system with magic in it too), often the only way to keep magic in check is with more magic to oppose it. I think its just due to the fundamental aspect of what magic is - its effectively the ability to overcome obstacles with a boxset of ambiguous power. So its only logical way to marginalise it in any meaningful way is to remove its source of power (NMZs) or make it oppose itself (with spells specifically designed to counter other spells).

[Kromm]

The real issue with fantasy magic is that gamers tend to want to throw it into otherwise medieval-looking settings "as is" and expect it not to affect the status quo of economics, politics, security, warfare, etc. Even DF (especially DF) has to think bigger. Of course all locks on anything important have one tiny meteoric iron part to mess with Lockmaster . . . all kings wear Crowns of Immunity to Charm . . . alchemy is flawlessly capable of testing for real gold vs. illusions . . . castles all take air defense and flying thieves into account . . . and so on. If you don't like that preponderance of countermeasures, then it's probably best to go the Conan route and say, "Magic is for villains!"

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Also, due to throw backs from D&D I always run Lockpicking as a DX skill, and have it take 1 min, with -5 seconds per MoS and +20 seconds per MoF (crit fails break picks and increase the penalty if attempted again).

It's worth noting picking locks is DX-based in DF.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Even DF (especially DF) has to think bigger. Of course all locks on anything important have one tiny meteoric iron part to mess with Lockmaster . . . all kings wear Crowns of Immunity to Charm . . . alchemy is flawlessly capable of testing for real gold vs. illusions . . . castles all take air defense and flying thieves into account . . . and so on.

Yeah. It's scaled up fantasy, basically, not real-world middle ages plus magic.

I do think Lockmaster (and some other spells) really stamp on other people's niches pretty hard, though. And I'd generally rather nerf the spells directly than nerf them through extensive countermeasures. DF does scale back some spells which are just too game-changing. Lockmaster might have been another work looking at. I found I had to scale back Shape Earth just to force my players to stop trying to dig straight through walls instead of exploring the dungeon, despite extensive countermeasures.

On a broader scale, "harder locks" and "nerf Lockmaster" aren't going to make thieves more useful if they're having a hard time in your game. Even a lock with a meteoric pin in it isn't going to last long when the wizard can decide to throw an 18d Stone Missile (Magery 6 is possible for starting characters in DF) at it instead, or Shape Earth the door off its hinges, or have the barbarian rip it off the wall.

The thief must have more to do - places to sneak, things to climb, monsters to backstab, complicated traps to remove (or set), locks up on precarious perches or in tight spots, things to steal, and strange treasures to fence or identify. The wizard can try to cover all of that, but it'll cost more than throwing a point at Lockmaster, and it's usually easier to help the thief do that stuff via Invisibility and Dark Vision and such. Even if you don't customize the adventure to the adventures (I don't - I write my dungeon PC-neutral), it's worth including those kinds of obstacles.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Of course all locks on anything important have one tiny meteoric iron part to mess with Lockmaster . . . all kings wear Crowns of Immunity to Charm . . . alchemy is flawlessly capable of testing for real gold vs. illusions . . . castles all take air defense and flying thieves into account . . . and so on. If you don't like that preponderance of countermeasures, then it's probably best to go the Conan route and say, "Magic is for villains!"

This doesn't seem altogether that different from what I just said of using magic to counter magic, removing the ability to use magic, or just all out right banning spells you dislike (even if that means all of them).

I understand what you're saying though, in that you cant just add magic to a 'normal' world and expect magic to not completely change the landscape of how things are dealt with. I'm just saying the way you often deal with magic is to either be immune to magic, remove mana so magic cant be used, or just use magic to counter magic. Which in DF requires either specialised (and restrictive in what other properties it can carry) parts/items, or more magic.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

It's worth noting picking locks is DX-based in DF.

{scrapped incorrect rejection}
Nevermind, I just found it in DF2, yes you're right - I must have never noticed it due to running that way before adopting DF.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The real issue with fantasy magic is that gamers tend to want to throw it into otherwise medieval-looking settings "as is" and expect it not to affect the status quo of economics, politics, security, warfare, etc. Even DF (especially DF) has to think bigger. Of course all locks on anything important have one tiny meteoric iron part to mess with Lockmaster . . . all kings wear Crowns of Immunity to Charm . . . alchemy is flawlessly capable of testing for real gold vs. illusions . . . castles all take air defense and flying thieves into account . . . and so on. If you don't like that preponderance of countermeasures, then it's probably best to go the Conan route and say, "Magic is for villains!"

I think a book about how to construct dungeons that resist magic would be useful. The difference with D&D and GURPS is that D&D has memorized spells so that wizards don't do all of routine stuff like lock picking and this leaves the thief with stuff to do. But with GURPS the wizard can cast any spell he knows so when there is a lock he just casts Lockmaster while the D&D magic user might not have a spell that can open locks in memory. So this change in magic systems creates big changes in the way things work in dungeon delving. That is why I think a book on constructing dungeons that take into account GURPS Magic would be very useful. Dungeons also change with powers like Psi, Chi, Power Investiture and spirits.

[Kromm]

Since it's hard to predict what specific PCs can do, I've found that the most useful "countermeasure" is to set the stage so that a specific chain of tasks relies on old-fashioned skill rather than funky powers and spells. You use a thief when the lock that needs opening is down a 100' duct that you need Escape to fit down, access to which is guarded by winged monsters with high Magic Resistance (so spells roll off) and good Dodge (so you need the sort of decent combat skills that come with high DX to manage the Deceptive Attack), preferably 100' off the ground along a narrow ledge (so you'll want Perfect Balance while sneaking and fighting). Opening the lock on the plain wooden door is beneath him . . . that's a wizard's job. Sure, the wizard could fly up there, shrink himself, and go open the lock without -33 for range or so, but the energy investment gets pretty huge, and then there's the fighting.

It's contrived, of course – but so are tight niches! And it's certainly no more contrived than justifying a force of armed, armored orcs standing around in formation, waiting to give the group something to fight. Or a labyrinth that exists solely to be raided.