How to see someone with obscure

[xpto]

Hi,

If someone has obscure (vision) what can another one have to see it?

for example:
- if someone has invisibility another can have see invisibility
- if someone has chameleon another can have perception
- if someone has obscure(vision) another can have ???
- if someone has obscure(vision) with targeting only [-20%] another can have ???

[Langy]

See Invisibility also works on Obscure.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by xpto

- if someone has obscure(vision) with targeting only [-20%] another can have ???

Targeting only means that it just gives a skill penalty to attacks, right? Higher skill counters it, then. What am I missing?

[Dusqune]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Targeting only means that it just gives a skill penalty to attacks, right? Higher skill counters it, then. What am I missing?

Well, if there's a Obscure 10 with Targeting Only are they completely concealed (as RAW seems to imply) and therefore cannot be targeted, or does it only apply a -10 to hit? Honestly, I'm not sure...

Originally Posted by Langy

See Invisibility also works on Obscure.

See, now I'm curious as to whether it affects Chameleon as well... I've sort of been having a discussion on the merits of Chameleon (<winks at sir pudding>), and if it's able to act as a workaround against (specifically) counter-invisibility measures, it might be worth glancing at more closely... Or is Chameleon just a 'halfway' version of Invisibility?


To answer the topic, non-stealthy obscure gives an observer a chance to notice the disruption as well. Obscure(vision) 10 is painfully easy to see--it's a massive (or at the very least, obvious) cloud of fog, or blanket of darkness or whatever you would like to flavor it as. Stealthy Obcure Vision, IIRC, acts like a cloaking field, and as such I do think See Invisibility should work on it (and, admittedly, Chameleon if you bought it up to 'invisibility' levels).

Out of curiosity, has anybody created (and played with) a Star Craft Arbiter-type version of this power? It would be Obscure with all the modifiers listed under the advantage, plus some 'Does not conceal self' limitation. It would be an interesting idea... although I think you'd prefer to hand it to a disposable Ally, given that everybody's going to be shooting at the one thing they can see (which is exactly what happened on the game).
I would also like to point out (and by doing so, tie this previous comment back to the topic at hand) that in that instance, it was not quite stealthy--if you (as a player) looked closely you could see enemy stealthed units, but you could not target them. Arguably, this might be 9 levels of obscure with stealthy and one level without it. But in any case, the 'see invisible units' units could spot the units the Arbiter concealed.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dusqune

Well, if there's a Obscure 10 with Targeting Only are they completely concealed (as RAW seems to imply) and therefore cannot be targeted, or does it only apply a -10 to hit? Honestly, I'm not sure...

If Obscure 10 with Targeting only even makes sense (I'm not sure it does) then I think it has to be just -10 to hit. The whole point of targeting only is that it doesn't make it any harder to see where you are, just to hit you.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If Obscure 10 with Targeting only even makes sense (I'm not sure it does) then I think it has to be just -10 to hit. The whole point of targeting only is that it doesn't make it any harder to see where you are, just to hit you.

High levels of Obscure (Targeting Only) is actually a decent fit for the Sanctuary spell from Morrowind et al, which gives enemies a reduction in hit chance (as opposed to the Shield spell, which functions as armor and reduces damage, or Chameleon which actually make you harder to spot). As an Illusion spell, it's not deflecting attacks but instead working on the mind of the attacker; Glamour may be an appropriate limitation.

Other games may have similar powers, though none come to mind at present. The classic D&D Sanctuary, IIRC, simply means that the subject is immune to offensive action as long as he takes none himself.

[whswhs]

I would look at Clairsentience, Hyperspectral Vision, and Penetrating Vision as starting places. Penetrating Vision is stated to work through "solid substances," but I don't think it would be a big enhancement to let it work through fog or smoke or opaque force fields.

Bill Stoddard

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Other games may have similar powers, though none come to mind at present.

First thing that comes to mind is classic D&D Displacement, which doesn't make it hard to spot you, just hard to hit you. That's not counterable by skill as it's a flat miss chance regardless of whether you hit or not, but it's similar stylistically.

You see where a Displacer Beast actually is with True Seeing, which in GURPS would be See Invisible with the (iirc) True Sight enhancement from Powers.

(I'm not sure what the best GURPS implementation of Displacement would be - it's not an active defense bonus as it works even if you're snoozing/surprised/whatever, it's not "really" a hit penalty as it's independant of attacker skill... some sort of weird heavily limited Unreliable Insubstantial?)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by xpto

- if someone has obscure(vision) another can have ???

See Invisible with True Sight
An alternate vision mode
An alternate sense entirely (Vibration Sense, Radar, Sonar, etc)
High skill
High vision bonuses

Originally Posted by xpto

- if someone has obscure(vision) with targeting only [-20%] another can have ???

Everything for above, noting that the alternate senses need to only be targeting senses not resolving senses.
Anything that gives targeting bonuses.


And of course, for all of the above, various anti-effects are useful as well.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Bruno

First thing that comes to mind is classic D&D Displacement, which doesn't make it hard to spot you, just hard to hit you. That's not counterable by skill as it's a flat miss chance regardless of whether you hit or not, but it's similar stylistically.
...

I first thought of the simpler spell, "Blur".