[DF][First Time] Advice in pregenerating the cleric and wizard

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Douglass Cole is playing a Warrior Saint in a party that includes a cleric, I will let him tell you what issues, if any, he had.

A wizard-cleric and a scholar-cleric, now, actually.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Both kids of clerics can coexist without issues, I've done that, and it works. Of course having both in a party will mean that they cover the same niche. Douglass Cole is playing a Warrior Saint in a party that includes a cleric, I will let him tell you what issues, if any, he had.

Ah, Cadmus' story.

Firstly, the ground rules. There are a few house rules in play that Crakkerjakk can tell you about, but the number of allowed disads was pretty low relative to basic DF. But we also got some more points. We wound up about 280-point characters with something like -30 points in disads. Net of 250 still, so it worked out.

Here's Cadmus, hidden behind a "Spoiler" tag because the printout is so darn long.

Spoiler:  

Brother Cadmus (288 points)
Age 28; Human; 6'1"; 200 lbs.; Solidly built, friendly looking, moves with purpose.

ST 13* [30]; DX 13 [60]; IQ 12 [40]; HT 12 [20].

Damage 1d/2d; BL 34 lb; HP 13 [0]; Will 14 [10]; Per 12 [0]; FP 12 [0]. Basic Speed 6.25 [0]; Basic Move 6 [0]; Block 12 (Shield)†; Dodge 10†; Parry 12 (Axe/Mace)†. Unspent Points: 2

Social Background
TL: 3 [0].
CF: Inner Sea.
Languages: Taldane (Native/None); Trade Speak (Broken/None). [0]

Advantages
Combat Reflexes [15]; Divine Favor 8 [45]; Learned Prayer (Final Rest) [1]; Learned Prayer (Flesh Wounds) [4]; Learned Prayer (Lay on Hands) [8]; Learned Prayer (Holy Touch) [2]; Learned Prayer (Protection from Evil, Enhanced) [7]; Striking ST 1 [5]; Trading Character Points for Money $2,500 [5].

Perks: Named Possession (Axe, "Shrivener"); Shield-Wall Training; Shtick (Beings killed cannot rise as Undead); Skill Adaptation (Judo Throw defaults to Axe/Mace); Suit Familiarity (Armory/TL3); Weapon Bond (Axe/Mace) [6].

Disadvantages
Code of Honor (Pharasmic Code) [-10]; Honesty (15 or less) [-5]; Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5]; Sense of Duty (Ameiko Kaijitsu) [-2]; Vow (Own no more than horse can carry) [-10].

Quirks: Does not put himself in the lead role willingly [-1]; Follows an escalation of force (knobbed club, hammer, axe) , kills grudgingly [-1]; Very competitive, but doesn't start competitions [-1]; Loves to gamble [-1]; Not evangelical; helps people meet their fate, but doesn't push or preach [-1]

Skills
Animal Handling (Equines) (A) IQ-1 [2]-12; Armoury/TL3 (Body Armor) (A) IQ-1 [1]-11; Armoury/TL3 (Melee Weapons) (A) IQ-1 [1]-11; Axe/Mace (A) DX+4 [16]-17‡; Bow (A) DX-1 [2]-13; Carousing (E) HT [1]-12; Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-12; First Aid/TL3 (Human) (E) IQ [1]-12; Gambling (A) IQ [2]-12; Heraldry (A) IQ-1 [1]-11; Hiking (A) HT-1 [1]-11; Holy Warrior! (WC) IQ-1 [12]-11; Observation (A) Per-1 [1]-11; Polearm (A) DX+1 [4]-14; Riding (Equines) (A) DX-1 [2]-13; Savoir-Faire (High Society) (E) IQ [1]-12; Shield (Shield) (E) DX+3 [8]-16; Shortsword (A) DX [2]-13; Stealth (A) DX-1 [1]-12; Swimming (E) HT [1]-12; Wrestling (A) DX-1 [2]-13.

Techniques: Arm Lock (Wrestling) (A) [2]-15; Armed Grapple (Axe/Mace) (H) [0]-15; Armed Grapple (Polearm) (H) [0]-12; Disarming (Axe/Mace) (H) [0]-17; Judo Throw (Axe/Mace) (H) [0]-17; Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Neck) (H) [3]-14; Trip (Wrestling) (H) [0]-9; Wrist Lock (Wrestling) (A) [1]-14.

† Includes +1 from 'Combat Reflexes'. ‡Conditional +1 from 'Weapon Bond (Axe/Mace)'.

Issues: You have to know how to use your stuff. Not just "I hit him with my mace" (or in my case, "axe"), but the Warrior Saint is really built around Learned Prayers. And the really good ones, the ones that give you your niche, require Divine Favor of 6-9, which is PRICEY. It's worth it in the situations where you can just, say, lay down SMITE awesomeness on a bunch of undead, but it's still, as they say in my neck of the woods, "spendy."

You're a Jack-of-two-Trades. You can fight, but not nearly as well as a real fighter like a Knight or Barbarian. You can heal . . . actually, you can heal pretty well. You take Lay on Hands (DivFav 8 required, IIRC) and (very important) Flesh Wounds. You take others' damage into yourself, but heal it up at 1 HP per 10 min with Flesh wounds.

What you lose, relative to spell-clerics, is versatility. The "real" Cleric (as sir_pudding said, Wizard-Cleric) in our group (he might not just be a cleric) has some really generically useful smackdown he can throw around (Stunball is a favorite).

You also need to realize that what you lack in "yes, I can cast this spell, or use that prayer, with regularity" you gain in unreliable but occasionally truly mighty General or Specific prayers.

Thus far, Cadmus has asked his God (Pharasma, from Paizo's world):

* Let their journey through a swamp be eased. It was granted, and the normally deep and tiring swamp was like a rubberized track - spongy but not tiring. Clothes were not soaked, mosquitos didn't stop for lunch, etc. We arrived a lot faster and a lot more refreshed than otherwise.

* He prayed for Smite to destroy an undead super-samurai guy who was doing a really good impression of a Cuisinart. It was granted, and Smite earns its name.

* He prayed to exorcise a spirit; that worked, but the spirit repulsed him

* He prayed for guidance in an upcoming battle; he rolled pretty well, and got a divinely inspired "tug" that got the party out of a really confusing bind as to what to do next

There were a few other examples, some of which failed.

So, he's versatile, but sometimes he can really help the group out.

The points sunk into Divine Favor and Learned Prayers, though, are many. I've got 67 points there, which means my Holy Warrior! skill ain't all that great, and my fighting ability (on a DF scale) is above average, but not great. I don't have a lot of room for really cool stuff, so I lop off heads a lot with TA. Functional, but not as narratively varied as I like.

Lastly, you have to watch out for the high-move or ranged types in your own party. They can get to the battle and end it before you get to engage, so if you want to get your kicks being more SMITE than HEAL, the straight-up Holy Warrior might be more your cup of tea. Either that or buy a horse. A FAST horse. That being said, your biggest niche will be (with DivFav 9, especially) laying waste to undead types, and your'e a very, very powerful healer with the right learned prayers.

TL; DR. He's a hoot to play. But if you want to be both Warrior AND Cleric, you're going to need 350-400 points to make it feel like you're good at both. And at that level, any dedicated template will, of course, be better in their own niche.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Lastly, you have to watch out for the high-move or ranged types in your own party. They can get to the battle and end it before you get to engage, so if you want to get your kicks being more SMITE than HEAL, the straight-up Holy Warrior might be more your cup of tea.

Poor Cadmus is stuck in a party with two unusually mobile characters (a gargoyle who cheats by flying, and a scout who ran the first adventure with No Encumbrance and a base Move of 7 - but cloth "armor"), one of whom was also ranged (the scout, obviously). So this particular problem is really acute for him.

The two really mobile melee templates are Barbarian and Swashbuckler (note, both lightly armored!) Going for a mobile holy warrior in decent armor requires investing money and points in a mount and the skills required to use it in combat, or investing the points in a racial template like Gargoyle or Winged Elf (and some Flying related skills!). Both of these will naturally suck points away from your Holy Warrior-ness/Warrior-Saint-ness. Or you just buy a lot of ST and Move, but again, that costs - the ST does double duty for smashing in combat but you have to divert from cool holy stuff to do that.

A solution for mobile holy warriors is to go without heavy armor, but that can be tricky :)