[Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

[Dragyn]

Why is it that actually hitting something with a missile spell relies on your ability to physically hit with it?

It strikes me as odd that a mage is required to spend hundreds of hours practicing hitting things with their magic attacks. Not counting the fact that such practice would be wearying in the extreme with the continued casting of missile spells to practice with, why is an attack with the result of magical spell made with a DX based skill?

Why does Magery not add to the Innate Attack skill when used with missile spells?

Face it... DX is a dump stat for Mages. Always has been, in every system I've played. But if you want to be effective with offensive spells in GURPS, you'd better rethink that. Take a Mage with a DX of 12, standard for Dungeon Fantasy Wizards, frex, and have him spend 2 points in an IA skill. That's 400 hours of practice throwing missile spells.. and he has an effective skill of 13.

Why bother? What's the point? Range penalties, to say nothing of anything else, makes this level of skill laughable in any combat situation. Even with aiming, for three rounds, you only get a total of +3.


Solutions?

1. Make Innate Attack an IQ-based skill for spells.
2. Let Magery act as a Talent for Innate Attack (just as it does for spells, Thaumatology, etc..)
3. Anything else?

It just seems broken to me that a type of character that is specifically not focused on physical accomplishment should be required to break that mold in order to fill his/her niche in the first place.. The mage above, to get a 15 skill level (which is really the minimum to be combat effective) would need to spend 8 points.. and that's just for one specialty, just to be combat effective with a missile spell.

It seems like the GURPS expectation here is for Mages to have both a high IQ and a high DX.. In which case, I'd rather carry a bow and a quiver of arrows, and not have to spend the extra energy to cast a missile spell in the first place.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

3. Anything else?

Psychic Guidance?

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Psychic Guidance?

Which is expressed, in rules terms, how?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Which is expressed, in rules terms, how?

I'm not entirely sure, I don't have GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Which is expressed, in rules terms, how?

Psychic Guidance is a perk that lets you throw a specified missile spell using your spell skill itself to hit (as well as to cast) rather than using innate attack.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not entirely sure, I don't have GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles.

And I didn't even know it was there.

Thank you, sir. You have answered my question.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Face it... DX is a dump stat for Mages. Always has been, in every system I've played. But if you want to be effective with offensive spells in GURPS, you'd better rethink that. Take a Mage with a DX of 12, standard for Dungeon Fantasy Wizards, frex, and have him spend 2 points in an IA skill. That's 400 hours of practice throwing missile spells..

Actually it's a couple of battles. Fireball wizards usually buy up their throwing skill with combat experience.

Why bother? What's the point? Range penalties, to say nothing of anything else, makes this level of skill laughable in any combat situation.

Mages are not normally snipers. They are not intended to beat archers in their sphere of specialization. If they were, they wouldn't have such a large stockpile of spells that won't work on any target more than 10 yards away. Compared to the effective range of a typical spell, the effective range of missile spells is a big improvement even mediocre spell throwing skill.

It just seems broken to me that a type of character that is specifically not focused on physical accomplishment should be required to break that mold in order to fill his/her niche in the first place.. The mage above, to get a 15 skill level (which is really the minimum to be combat effective) would need to spend 8 points.. and that's just for one specialty, just to be combat effective with a missile spell.

...so? A 15 skill level is not in fact the minimum to be combat effective. But even if it was, I don't see the problem with spending 8 points on what sounds like what you want to be your primary attack.

It seems like the GURPS expectation here is for Mages to have both a high IQ and a high DX..

Nope. GURPS doesn't even necessarily expect you to use missile spells.

In which case, I'd rather carry a bow and a quiver of arrows, and not have to spend the extra energy to cast a missile spell in the first place.

And exactly how would you use your quiver of arrows to do 12 dice of damage to that dragon?

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

2. Let Magery act as a Talent for Innate Attack (just as it does for spells, Thaumatology, etc..)

From GURPS Powers, p.29, talking about Power Talents.

This advantage comes in levels and gives a bonus equal to its level on any success roll made to use any of the power’s abilities. This includes DX rolls to maneuver with movement abilities; Innate Attack skill rolls to hit with attacks; IQ, Will, and Perception rolls to use mental abilities; and any other success roll the GM requires for the power

In a Power's approach, the power talent for anything magical is Magery. Although not specifically mentioned, I personally don't see any reason why you can't let it apply to magical spells in a skill-based approach of GURPS Magic. So I'd let it modify your hit rolls with spells, Perception rolls with detection spells, etc., just as indicated there.

That said, as David Johnston2 is correct. GURPS doesn't expect mages to be "battle mages" by default as in most other roleplaying games. You can make a combat mage, if desired, but then its like making a fighter and a mage, and thus will cost significant amount of points to do so (i.e., you'll need both a good IQ and DX).

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Actually it's a couple of battles. Fireball wizards usually buy up their throwing skill with combat experience.

Even following that line of logic, that's assuming you survive long enough to do that. What I was looking for was a better way, and thanks to sir_pudding, I have it.

Mages are not normally snipers. They are not intended to beat archers in their sphere of specialization. If they were, they wouldn't have such a large stockpile of spells that won't work on any target more than 10 yards away. Compared to the effective range of a typical spell, the effective range of missile spells is a big improvement even mediocre spell throwing skill.

I'm aware of that.. and if I was trying to compete with the accuracy and range of an archer, I would be using something with stats better than 1/2d 25, Max 50, and Acc 1.. But even hitting a target at moderate ranges, say 15 to 20 yards, at a penalty of -5 to -6, a skill of 12-13 just doesn't cut it.

...so? A 15 skill level is not in fact the minimum to be combat effective. But even if it was, I don't see the problem with spending 8 points on what sounds like what you want to be your primary attack.

It does if you look at the wider picture. Most PC's, myself included, tend to aim for that magical spell level of 15.. With an IQ of 14 for [80], and Magery 3 for [35], and then the fireball spell and prerequisites at 1 point each for another [5]. That's 120 points spent to be able to cast Fireball at skill 15.

And then I have to spend another 8 points to reliably hit anything beyond the end of my nose? Even with a skill of 15, against a stationary, SM +0 target, without the time to aim, I'm only at effective skill 10. For 128 points.

Sure hope he doesn't dodge.
[/quote]

Nope. GURPS doesn't even necessarily expect you to use missile spells.

I said "the expectation here", meaning the use of missile spells.. it's what my entire post was about...

And exactly how would you use your quiver of arrows to do 12 dice of damage to that dragon?

It wouldn't, obviously, but at least I'd have a shot at hitting the beast.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

From GURPS Powers, p.29, talking about Power Talents.

This advantage comes in levels and gives a bonus equal to its level on any success roll made to use any of the power’s abilities. This includes DX rolls to maneuver with movement abilities; Innate Attack skill rolls to hit with attacks; IQ, Will, and Perception rolls to use mental abilities; and any other success roll the GM requires for the power

In a Power's approach, the power talent for anything magical is Magery. Although not specifically mentioned, I personally don't see any reason why you can't let it apply to magical spells in a skill-based approach of GURPS Magic. So I'd let it modify your hit rolls with spells, Perception rolls with detection spells, etc., just as indicated there.

Which is my prefered method, and why I included it.. However, that's houserule territory, not RAW. The perk suggested by sir_pudding is RAW.

That said, as David Johnston2 is correct. GURPS doesn't expect mages to be "battle mages" by default as in most other roleplaying games. You can make a combat mage, if desired, but then its like making a fighter and a mage, and thus will cost significant amount of points to do so (i.e., you'll need both a good IQ and DX).

I understand that.. and I don't necessarily agree that every mage should be a combat mage. However, it still seems to be a disconnect for a mage not to be able to hit anything with that big ole 9d fireball glowing in his hand..