[DF/Ars Magica] The power to Excommunicate

[b-dog]

I am wondering what kind point cost it would be to have a cleric be able to excommunicate another person. I am guessing this would result in a permanent disadvantage that could only be removed if a person repented and fullilled obligations to God. But still the power to excommunicate seems it is very powerful and thse who wield it would have great powers over others. I imagine there would need to be some Status requirement but it may need some sort of Power Inestiture or Divine Favor abilities to perform. What do you think?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am wondering what kind point cost it would be to have a cleric be able to excommunicate another person.

Is this just a social penalty, or is it shutting off supernatural powers as well? Arguably it's Legal Enforcement Powers (Religious), possibly combined with Neutralize. If you can do it without due cause, Status (Church) may be involved.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Is this just a social penalty, or is it shutting off supernatural powers as well? Arguably it's Legal Enforcement Powers (Religious), possibly combined with Neutralize. If you can do it without due cause, Status (Church) may be involved.

I am thinking the person gets the Excommunicated advantage. They suffer penalties on social rolls and they have a bad aura about them.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am wondering what kind point cost it would be to have a cleric be able to excommunicate another person. I am guessing this would result in a permanent disadvantage that could only be removed if a person repented and fullilled obligations to God. But still the power to excommunicate seems it is very powerful and thse who wield it would have great powers over others. I imagine there would need to be some Status requirement but it may need some sort of Power Inestiture or Divine Favor abilities to perform. What do you think?

I think that no religion large enough and influential to be able to effectively saddle someone with a social stigma would leave the power to do it in the hands of any individual except for the leader of their faith if any. Otherwise we're talking things like tribunals and popular votes.

[malloyd]

I think in settings like this, where there is a definite supernatural effect, it's essentially a clerical spell, and ought to work like any other clerical spell. The most important limitation from that being it only works when your god agrees.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I think in settings like this, where there is a definite supernatural effect, it's essentially a clerical spell, and ought to work like any other clerical spell.

No it isn't. Fundamentally, it's the power to kick someone out of an organization that normally provides status and temporal power. As such, it's a social ability. There could be a sealing spell of some sort, but it's not needed for any powers with a Holy power source unless you don't have the agreement of the god.

[BrockNicholson]

If the spell is based on clerical power it allows you to kick a person out of a religion if and only if the god of that religion agrees they should be out. This is a fundamentally different thing than excommunication in the normal sense of the word in which it is merely a social status. I think it makes perfect sense to have a clerical spell which marks a person as excommunicated.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by BrockNicholson

If the spell is based on clerical power it allows you to kick a person out of a religion if and only if the god of that religion agrees they should be out.

That just means your decision is subject to the permission of your superiors in the social structure, which is perfectly normal for social advantages. The fact that the top of your social structure is a god rather than a king or emperor is only incidentally relevant.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No it isn't. Fundamentally, it's the power to kick someone out of an organization that normally provides status and temporal power. As such, it's a social ability.

If it's a purely social ability, with no supernatural effects, then you don't pay anything extra for it over and above your Religious Rank. Being able to demote or fire your inferiors, possibly with the agreement of your superiors, possibly on your own decisions, is a pretty central feature of Rank in that organization, and that's all this is as a social ability.

[tfaal]

How about we consider this as two separate powers; one social, and one magical. The ability to excommunicate someone from the church is an element of Religious Rank, but it just so happens that, as a part of the church's standard procedures, there's a spell that's cast in the process of excommunication that strips the victim of his divinely granted powers. *That's* the part you stat up. It would probably be some form of Neutralize, and would be limited, as most divine powers are, by the potential to anger your god if you misuse it.