Affliction and Machines

[Flyndaran]

HT doesn't go up just because you slapped thick armor on it.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

HT14 seems generous for something that has to be transported by railway because letting it move on its own propulsion causes it to break down in a couple of days. Also, tanks seem to be built as if they're Cheap in G:Spaceships/vehicles terms.

I baulk at Cheap being applied to an Abrams; complex, state of the art, high maintenance rather than low HT. Okay, not high HT but a system that needs a mechanical overhaul after a few hours of use rather than it fails repeatedly if you use it.
Is there a vehicle specific/ more detailed writeup of Maintenance B143 in 3e Vehicles?

Oh, Afflict Morph - the afflictor picks the form at the time of afflicting? thanks - my bad.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

I baulk at Cheap being applied to an Abrams; complex, state of the art, high maintenance rather than low HT. Okay, not high HT but a system that needs a mechanical overhaul after a few hours of use rather than it fails repeatedly if you use it.
Is there a vehicle specific/ more detailed writeup of Maintenance B143 in 3e Vehicles?

Complex, fiddly state-of-the art, high-maintenance, possibly low HT. In 4e, a Cheap vehicle has a -2 modifier to HT (relative to the base), and a maintenance cost of roughly 1% of its construction cost per month of operation. Very Cheap get -4 HT and 1% per week. Tanks as built on modern Terra seem to have those (Cheap) traits: they have huge maintenance requirements/costs, and tend to break down easily when confronted with something as routine as using their main form of locomotion for days to weeks. For comparison, a human has HT10 and does not break one's legs just by walking for several months. In fact, HT10 characters experience a very small percentage of breakdowns from routine actions.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

IIRC: Kromm mentioned a desire to rewrite Affliction costs along the lines of 10+3/lvl and each level does 1d "damage", resisted by DR, and half penetrating damage is the HT penalty to resist. At least I think that was the idea... So would that make it cost [120] + [36/lvl]?

That sounds vastly too complicated for a Kromm proposal. I'm pretty sure it was just "make Affliction cost 10+3/level" to bring costs under control.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I think already ranted about the PP12 box, because while it defines interaction between Will-resisted effects and targets 'without such an attribute', there is no indication whatsoever that objects can lack an attribute (not a 'pool' like FP or ER) instead of having it at zero.

Except that particular box and RPKs statement which is pretty much just a call for the application of common sense in this area. Magic also mentions that "things with IQ0 like plants are also inanimate" which can only be read two ways: inanimate objects have IQ 1 or greater, inanimate objects have no IQ.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by lexington

Except that particular box and RPKs statement which is pretty much just a call for the application of common sense in this area. Magic also mentions that "things with IQ0 like plants are also inanimate" which can only be read two ways: inanimate objects have IQ 1 or greater, inanimate objects have no IQ.

The appeal to common sense is where I've always gone with this sort of thing. "Of course you can't affect the tank with a Will-based attack! It doesn't have any!" I'm OK with Rev's interpretation, but IMO, he didn't go quite far enough. I'd just say that if an effect is resisted by an attribute the target doesn't have, then the ability simply does not work against that target.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The appeal to common sense is where I've always gone with this sort of thing. "Of course you can't affect the tank with a Will-based attack! It doesn't have any!"

How is that common sense? Why should lacking the component required to resist grant immunity? If someone sells their Will down to 0 would that make them immune to will resisted effects or should it allow them to use HT instead?

In many cases despite lacking any ability to resist machines will still be immune because they lack the component to be effected (such as a mind).

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

How is that common sense? Why should lacking the component required to resist grant immunity? If someone sells their Will down to 0 would that make them immune to will resisted effects or should it allow them to use HT instead?

In many cases despite lacking any ability to resist machines will still be immune because they lack the component to be effected (such as a mind).

In retrospect, the use of "common sense" might have been a bit inflammatory. Something like "appeals to my sensibilities" probably would have been better. My apologies for the phrasing.

IMO, the target is not the one missing a requirement. Rather, the attacker is trying to hit something that is not there.

I'm not certain how to resolve the example of a character selling their Will down to zero. On the one hand, they presumably have a racial template with a normally positive Will, and so deserve the implied automatic lack of resistance. OTOH, the zero-level trait is already trouble for the character, and fits my own notion that having a trait at that level is the equivalent of it being what I have called 'N/A'.

When you say "lack the component", what are you talking about?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by lexington

Except that particular box and RPKs statement which is pretty much just a call for the application of common sense in this area. Magic also mentions that "things with IQ0 like plants are also inanimate" which can only be read two ways: inanimate objects have IQ 1 or greater, inanimate objects have no IQ.

It says:

Originally Posted by M43

Change a person into an inanimate
object of similar weight. The object
may be anything that the caster is
familiar with. A living thing with IQ 0,
such as a plant, qualifies as an inani-mate object for this purpose.

It adds plants, which actually move, albeit slowly, to the list of inanimate objects, for the purpose of this spell.

Speaking of plants with IQ 0, there is explicit precedent of plants with IQ 0 and Will 0. The Herecine (Fantasy p.47) is listed as having Will 0, the drone robots (Ultra-Tech p.26. 29) that can only be operated externally are IQ 0 (and thus by default extension Will 0).

The Thanatos Field from Psi-Tech p.25 is resisted by Will-4, and does not work on bacteria and the like, but only because they have IQ 0 (it is explicitly stated so in the first paragraph); it is not assumed to fail against them due to 'Will N/A'.