Generation Ships

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Lamech

You mean an airlock?

No, I mean total isolation of all systems and consumables. A "destabilizing element" can be something as subtle as a given brownwater component's relative level that impacts the rate of reproduction of a necessary microbe. The microbe's already present in all the farms, and the people moved between farms are free from pathogens, but time after time the introduction of new European families into Asian-majority farm modules presages waste treatment failures and a pernicious black mold growing indoors. The introduction of milk-consuming humans and consequently of stools containing lactose and galactose digestion products alters the brownwater chemistry, even though there's nothing wrong with the milk and the same milk drunk by the established European families in the same farm modules has not caused the problem before, both because their internal flora had adapted to produce different proportions of the digestion products, and the external flora had been able to adapt to the smaller milk-drinking's population's proportionately smaller milk intake, as economies of scale had disfavored dairy herds; there's only so many picket fences and plaster walls for their lactose-intolerant Asian neighbors to whitewash.

Simple solutions like airlocks, suits, and hand sanitizer won't address complex interactions like that.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The hard part is that sex (as part of the general pattern of male/female relations) is psychologically and culturally explosive. When we look closely, we see that a significant part of the cultural structure of earthside societies exists precisely to regulate sexual matters into channels that let the society survive and function.

With the smaller margins for error and higher social 'tension' of a genship's population, this will be a major issue. You are not likely to see the sexual tropes of the modern weathly West in play on a genship. There are various forms it could take, but all of them will be fairly restrictive. Easy marriage, easy divorce, 'sex is a private matter', those wouldn't work on a genship unless it was gargantuan and carried an immense population. It certainly wouldn't work on a genship that could be built at TL8 or even TL9.

For a genship, you're better off getting people without the silly emotional baggage that gets perpetuated by both the conservative parents and the pathos-filled media in Modern Western Society. Take a look at The Culture, Modern Terran Bonobos, or (maybe, depending on how good I understand it) Beta Colony. Those are the frameworks and treatments of sex that are safer on a genship than the current mess.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

For a genship, you're better off getting people without the silly emotional baggage that gets perpetuated by both the conservative parents and the pathos-filled media in Modern Western Society. Take a look at The Culture, Modern Terran Bonobos, or (maybe, depending on how good I understand it) Beta Colony. Those are the frameworks and treatments of sex that are safer on a genship than the current mess.

That makes quite the assumption that sexuality is purely cultural.
I'm pretty sure some of my sexuality is genetic. I and my life-mate are monogamous by nature, not choice, for example.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That makes quite the assumption that sexuality is purely cultural.
I'm pretty sure some of my sexuality is genetic. I and my life-mate are monogamous by nature, not choice, for example.

Yeah, this is probably going to go a lot better if we select for a predisposition to polyamory (within reason - yes, I still consider technical skills more important) at the outset and then raise the kids that way... Strongly monogamous and/or jealous types are just going to be trouble in this scenario, both for social harmony and genetic diversity...

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

No, I mean total isolation of all systems and consumables. A "destabilizing element" can be something as subtle as a given brownwater component's relative level that impacts the rate of reproduction of a necessary microbe. The microbe's already present in all the farms, and the people moved between farms are free from pathogens, but time after time the introduction of new European families into Asian-majority farm modules presages waste treatment failures and a pernicious black mold growing indoors. The introduction of milk-consuming humans and consequently of stools containing lactose and galactose digestion products alters the brownwater chemistry, even though there's nothing wrong with the milk and the same milk drunk by the established European families in the same farm modules has not caused the problem before, both because their internal flora had adapted to produce different proportions of the digestion products, and the external flora had been able to adapt to the smaller milk-drinking's population's proportionately smaller milk intake, as economies of scale had disfavored dairy herds; there's only so many picket fences and plaster walls for their lactose-intolerant Asian neighbors to whitewash.

Simple solutions like airlocks, suits, and hand sanitizer won't address complex interactions like that.

These things aren't really particularly hard to solve. You just have to set up things to not have the problem. It is quite hard to predict problems like these though.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

For a genship, you're better off getting people without the silly emotional baggage that gets perpetuated by both the conservative parents and the pathos-filled media in Modern Western Society. Take a look at The Culture, Modern Terran Bonobos, or (maybe, depending on how good I understand it) Beta Colony. Those are the frameworks and treatments of sex that are safer on a genship than the current mess.

Yes, exactly. There will still be issues related to sex but a culture could remove the multiplicative effects sex tends to have.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That makes quite the assumption that sexuality is purely cultural.
I'm pretty sure some of my sexuality is genetic. I and my life-mate are monogamous by nature, not choice, for example.

If you are monogamous by nature that doesn't necessarily mean your monogamy is genetic. Even if it is lack of monogamy isn't really necessary for these cultures. The key difference is looking at sex based on it's intrinsic nature without any cultural effects bundled in to make it seem more important, be more volatile &c.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Yeah, this is probably going to go a lot better if we select for a predisposition to polyamory (within reason - yes, I still consider technical skills more important) at the outset and then raise the kids that way... Strongly monogamous and/or jealous types are just going to be trouble in this scenario, both for social harmony and genetic diversity...

Covering up natural monogamy is going to cause more trouble than just having an open honest up front society. You can't make me poly, and you can't make polies monogamous. Society tells us whether our natures are good or bad, not what they are.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Covering up natural monogamy is going to cause more trouble than just having an open honest up front society. You can't make me poly, and you can't make polies monogamous. Society tells us whether our natures are good or bad, not what they are.

I'm not suggesting that we try to change you guys; I'm suggesting that we should probably leave you off the boat. ;]

Naturally a certain percentage of kids born to the initial crew will trend toward monogamy, but every society has its idealistic teenage rebels. Most (as always) will conform to the perceived norm.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I'm not suggesting that we try to change you guys; I'm suggesting that we should probably leave you off the boat. ;]

Naturally a certain percentage of kids born to the initial crew will trend toward monogamy, but every society has its idealistic teenage rebels. Most (as always) will conform to the perceived norm.

That's just not realistic. Forcing people to act contrary to their nature will usually cause more trouble than simply allowing freedom of expression. Let the monogamous be monogamous, the poly be poly, the asexual etc. and make it the norm to be up front about one's nature before initiating relationships. That sounds far more harmonious to me.

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I'm not suggesting that we try to change you guys; I'm suggesting that we should probably leave you off the boat. ;]

Naturally a certain percentage of kids born to the initial crew will trend toward monogamy, but every society has its idealistic teenage rebels. Most (as always) will conform to the perceived norm.

Yet another possible reason to exclude Sindri from the generation ship. : )

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's just not realistic. Forcing people to act contrary to their nature will usually cause more trouble than simply allowing freedom of expression. Let the monogamous be monogamous, the poly be poly, the asexual etc. and make it the norm to be up front about one's nature before initiating relationships. That sounds far more harmonious to me.

I agree, but plenty of societies have forced all their members to be one thing.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sindri

I think the issue leading to this disagreement is fundamentally one of scale. I suspect I am imagining a significantly larger ship than you are. .

I do not suspect this. What I have had in mind is something like the O'Neill cylinder from UT p.71 with some sort of propyulsion system added.

Probably a solar sail for a period of enhanced intiial boost with rotation begun afterward durign the long coasting period. This is one of the reasons I go for something higher than TL8.

I suspect our differences have more to do with our respective opinions on how difficult all this would be.