Silent Ammunition Questions

[Kallatari]

I'm curious as to what weapons can use Silent Ammunition (GURPS High-Tech, p.165). More specifically, my players are looking for options for Silent Ammunition for weapons like the M16 and MP7.

From what's written in High-Tech, it seems that, with the exception of shotguns and grenade launchers which can take normal or silent ammunition interchangeably, a weapon has to be specifically designed for Silent Ammunition.

I only found two GURPS examples of such weapons (1 in High-Tech and the other in Tactical Shooting), and both were pistols. I did a bit of research to see what other examples I could find in the real world, and the only thing that seems to come close are some of the Russian SP rounds, again only for pistols.

On the other hand, I've noticed that GURPS Monster Hunters 1 provides Silent Ammunition as a simple "powder option" available for any weapon, seemingly freely interchangeable with ordinary weapons. That said, I acknowledge that Monster Hunters is a "simplified" set of rules for campaign setting, and thus may not be accurate/realistic when it comes to this.

So I guess my questions come down to, assuming trying to create a "realistic" approach to this (i.e., something that could be done today, in the real world, relatively easily even if not commonly done):

1 - Are there real life Silent Ammunition PDWs, SMGs, Assault Rifles, or even MGs? And what would the GURPS stats for them be?

2 - Can any ordinary weapon use Silent Ammo? Does this require some sort of modification? What would it cost? And if modified, can it then use Silent Ammo interchangeably with normal ammo, or would it only use Silent Ammo until modified back?

2a -> more specifically, as mentioned above, my players are using Colt M16 and H&K MP7, so options specifically for those would be even more pertinent.


Thanks in advance

[Ulzgoroth]

Logically, since going to the trouble of making Silent ammo that isn't subsonic seems silly, it would seem to be a bad match for normally very high velocity rifle or PDW rounds.

[Kallatari]

A bit of clarification as to why the request is being made:

I'm playing a modern-day counter-terrorist/hostage rescue campaign. Every now and then, they come into a group of relatively well trained bad guys who keep their hostages far enough behind the first row of guards that, should a commotion be heard, they shoot the hostages. So, for these particularly tough missions, they want something much more silent.

The group already has subsonic ammunition and the best sound suppressor they can get, used on pistols which are quieter, but sometimes even those gun shots are heard... or it fails to take the tango down (even on a head shot), which gives them time to sound an alarm (typically by shooting back with non-silence rounds). So they want to find something that's quieter, and that packs more of a punch than a suppressed subsonic pistol.


Actually, on a similar note, I presume that Baton rounds are already subsonic by default. I've been applying the subsonic ammunition Hearing modifier to those rounds, and not allowing players to add Subsonic to it. Is that appropriate?

[Kallatari]

Oh, I forgot...

3 - Can Silent Ammunition be combined with sound suppressors for a cumulative bonus with respect to hearing roll modifiers? (I'm guessing no, but have no technical background in this matter)

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Can Silent Ammunition be combined with sound suppressors for a cumulative bonus with respect to hearing roll modifiers?

No. Silent ammunition already lacks the sound that a suppressor would kill.

Cheers

HANS

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

The group already has subsonic ammunition and the best sound suppressor they can get, used on pistols which are quieter, but sometimes even those gun shots are heard... or it fails to take the tango down (even on a head shot), which gives them time to sound an alarm (typically by shooting back with non-silence rounds). So they want to find something that's quieter, and that packs more of a punch than a suppressed subsonic pistol.

You're not going to get anything quieter than a suppressed subsonic pistol while also getting more penetration. It's just not a category of things that weapons that currently exist. They might like the VAL assault rifle that the Russians made, it fires a heavy, subsonic, armor piercing bullet out of a barrel that is mostly suppressor. High-Tech has it included.

Have they tried using the Mozambique drill on badguys? Coordinated sniper teams? Knives? Doing something to distract the terrorists? Why are these hostage takers so eager to kill the people they have?

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by lexington

Have they tried using the Mozambique drill on badguys? Coordinated sniper teams? Knives? Doing something to distract the terrorists? Why are these hostage takers so eager to kill the people they have?

Yeah, they've done many of those when the situation permits itself. Most of their missions are against run-of-the mill bad guys who aren't tactical experts, don't have the best defenses, and have poor Guns skills. Occasionally, they take on better prepared and trained groups. On the really tough missions, they're against special forces of enemy nations* who are really dangerous opponents who take precautions against these obvious approaches, wear good armor, and are also trying to get their own missions done and have no qualms whatsoever taking out those in the way of their success. It's when they go against the latter type of opponent's that they're trying to find something "better."

*the geopolitics of my campaign world are slightly different than the real world. US, European Union, China, Russia, Japan, and a fictitious United Islamic Republic are all superpowers (or close enough to it) each with their own agendas. The world has a strong "cold war" feel to it. Many covertly sponsor terrorist groups to cause trouble in their neighbors that they don't like. Inspired by Tom Clancy novels.

[lexington]

The issue with using Monster Hunters here isn't that it's "simplified" so much that it's" gloriously unrealistic".

The silence of a silent round comes from its ability to trap gasses inside it the casing. Usually this is done with a piston that is released to push the bullet forward which causes various technical problems in autoloaders. The Russians eventually solved the problem by radically redesigning the whole cartridge and using a spherical bullet because it was shorter.

Simply: if you want a silent M16 orMP7 you'll have to invent a completely new round and a new chamber to hold it.

Realistically people who want to be stealthy load sub-sonic ammunition and attach a silencer rather than play with anything really complex.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by lexington

Simply: if you want a silent M16 orMP7 you'll have to invent a completely new round and a new chamber to hold it.

Yep. So, what would this take? How much would it cost (ballpark)? And could it still use normal ammo interchangeable?

Originally Posted by lexington

Realistically people who want to be stealthy load sub-sonic ammunition and attach a silencer rather than play with anything really complex.

That's what I'm guessing. My players have that already, but are trying to see if they can get something better. I have my doubts, but I'm not the expert, thus the post on the forums...

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Yep. So, what would this take? How much would it cost (ballpark)?

You can't do it.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

And could it still use normal ammo interchangeable?

No.

Cheers

HANS