[Powers] Leech (Steal Other Score)... Unfair?

[JCurwen3]

I've read a lot about how removing the resistance roll in GURPS is unfair. Which I'll go ahead and say I agree with.

Where's the resistance roll for the victim of someone with Leech with Steal ST, Steal IQ, etc?

Why is building an Affliction that afflicts an attribute penalty and allows no resistance unfair, yet Leech effectively does exactly that, plus you get healed too? Hell, Leech even ignores DR to add insult to injury (no pun), because it's direct injury and not damage. I'm not even sure IT:DR protects provides protection from a Steal Score Leech, although some comments a while ago from RPK I seem to remember makes me think probably.

What'd be unfair or unbalanced about an Affliction modified to require touch (like Leech), and imposed an attribute penalty, but without a resistance roll?

Or maybe I'll rephrase, how is this variant of Leech fair?

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I've read a lot about how removing the resistance roll in GURPS is unfair. Which I'll go ahead and say I agree with.

Where's the resistance roll for the victim of someone with Leech with Steal ST, Steal IQ, etc?

Why is building an Affliction that afflicts an attribute penalty and allows no resistance unfair, yet Leech effectively does exactly that, plus you get healed too? Hell, Leech even ignores DR to add insult to injury (no pun), because it's direct injury and not damage. I'm not even sure IT:DR protects provides protection from a Steal Score Leech, although some comments a while ago from RPK I seem to remember makes me think probably.

What'd be unfair or unbalanced about an Affliction modified to require touch (like Leech), and imposed an attribute penalty, but without a resistance roll?

Or maybe I'll rephrase, how is this variant of Leech fair?

This is because the target must be grappled or helpless to be affected. Note that Malediction is a required prerequisite for ranged, which then DOES imbue it with a resistance roll.


OPINION:
Nothing would be unfair or unbalanced about an Affliction modified to work as Leech does, as long as it included the requirement for them to be pinned or helpless, which is about as limiting as a resistance roll anyway.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I've read a lot about how removing the resistance roll in GURPS is unfair. Which I'll go ahead and say I agree with.

Where's the resistance roll for the victim of someone with Leech with Steal ST, Steal IQ, etc??

That would be in the roll to break free of the grapple.

[Refplace]

Yeah that out of combat or helpless thing is the real limiter.
The idea is that since you have to grapple or Pin your opponent you can just as easily slit their throat. Especially if Pinned.
If you add Malediction on it to make it ranged then its a Contest to resist.
I think that is the reason for that requirement rather then just normal range.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

OPINION:
Nothing would be unfair or unbalanced about an Affliction modified to work as Leech does, as long as it included the requirement for them to be pinned or helpless, which is about as limiting as a resistance roll anyway.

I do like that idea. How much should that cost though? Presumably it would require Melee C (-30%) and (possibly) Contact Agent (-30%) to represent the direct physical contact required. Additionally it requires an unresisting or completely subdued target, but gives them no resistance to the power itself. Would it be fair to just combine all these modifiers (Melee, Contact, and Subdued/No Resistance) and call it +0%? Or should the whole package have a positive cost?

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I do like that idea. How much should that cost though? Presumably it would require Melee C (-30%) and (possibly) Contact Agent (-30%) to represent the direct physical contact required. Additionally it requires an unresisting or completely subdued target, but gives them no resistance to the power itself. Would it be fair to just combine all these modifiers (Melee, Contact, and Subdued/No Resistance) and call it +0%? Or should the whole package have a positive cost?

Well, Leech doesn't come with Contact Agent, so it's not required. You can Leech a guy in sealed armor if you've got him in a bear hug (by default)

I can only offer my own suggestion on this, but I think Pinned or Unconscious would make it things more difficult than a resistance roll, so I would just call that a wash. Trade the resistance roll for must be pinned or unconscious and be done with it. I'd even still give you the points back for Melee (which should be required unless you want your friend to be able to pin the victim while you zap him.

Maybe we should give some kind of values so we can give it two levels. I want to call them "Add Insult to Injury" and "Kick Him When He's Down"

[Bruno]

Yeah, the strict rule is more like "either an active defense or resistance or some other complicated situational condition".

The roll to grapple, the active defense against grapple, and the chance to break free from grapple definitely more than fulfills the usual conditions.


That said, you can apply attribute penalties and Irritants without active defense, without DR applying, without resistance rolls, at range and without a roll to hit. It's expensive though.

Crushing Attack (Cosmic: Irresistable; Cosmic: No Active Defense; Cosmic: No Roll Required; Symptoms) - apply "No wounding and so forth" if you just want to put on penalties, not damage.

So for example:

Strength Sapping Blasts
These target seeking blasts of sapping energy require no roll to hit if your adjusted skill in Innate Attack is 3 or higher. Take an Attack maneuver and pick your target; the target cannot defend without a Cosmic dodge and non-Cosmic DR is useless. Non-Cosmic cover can apply a penalty to hit if you can't see through it, but it provides no cover DR.
Each time you apply this effect to a target, roll 1d and keep a running tally. Once this number equals 1/3 the targets HP, they take -3 ST. Once this number equals 1/2 the targets HP, the penalty increases to -6. Finally, once this number equals 2/3 the targets HP the penalty increases to -9.

Details: Crushing Attack 1d (Cosmic: Irresistable; Cosmic: No Active Defense; Cosmic: No Roll Required; Symptoms: ST-3 at HP 1/3; Symptoms: ST-3 at HP 1/2; Symptoms ST-3 at HP 2/3; Damage Limitations: No Blunt Trauma, No Knockback, No Wounding) [41]

But even here the effects on the victim are moderated by the victims hitpoints and healing support. And the Basic Set recommends the GM limit Symptoms based attacks to 1d (or less!) so it might take two or three shots at them. Buy an Extra Attack or add Rapid Fire, and generally you want to invest in a lot of Innate Attack.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Bruno

But even here the effects on the victim are moderated by the victims hitpoints and healing support. And the Basic Set recommends the GM limit Symptoms based attacks to 1d (or less!) so it might take two or three shots at them. Buy an Extra Attack or add Rapid Fire, and generally you want to invest in a lot of Innate Attack.

Combining Cosmic: No Roll Required with Guided/Homing or Jet makes an attack that is stupidly accurate. Without range penalties (or speed, for Jet), all you need to worry about are things like cover, concealment, visibility etc. There are downsides, notably the slow projectile speed of Guided/Homing and the short range of Jet, but those can both be mitigated with Increased Range.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Combining Cosmic: No Roll Required with Guided/Homing or Jet makes an attack that is stupidly accurate. Without range penalties (or speed, for Jet), all you need to worry about are things like cover, concealment, visibility etc. There are downsides, notably the slow projectile speed of Guided/Homing and the short range of Jet, but those can both be mitigated with Increased Range.

Generally, if your goal is to slam on lots of penalties quickly with a 1d or less limit, you want to apply things that are compatible with ROF so you can try to score multiple hits on the target (since the rule is that with No Roll Required and margin-based effects you can roll anyways and take the better of "Success by 0" and "actual success", you can combine ROF with No Roll Required).

Instead of Guided/Homing or Jet I'd go with Long Range 1 or 2.

[the_matrix_walker]

It's a fun thing to play around with, but combining Side Effects with No Wounding and keeping track of "phantom damage" to track it's effects isn't an approach taken in any of the RAW is it?