[MA] Draw Cut

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by aesir23

It is taught in historical fencing, but I think it was also taught in some Kenjutusu schools (although I could be wrong about that).

As seen on Highlander (TV series) and some other Kendo-based things there is a long low cut transsecting the abdomen below the ribs. The motion isn't like the one or two-handed swings (baseball bat like) of basic attacks I've seen in things inspired by Broadsword or Two-handed sword sport like SCA.

I'd call this a Draw Cut and in one of their sword episodes the Mythbusters had a reenactor use a a katana on a block of ballisitcs gelatin (without armor covering). The resulting cut was long and 9 inches deep.

I certianly don't think it would work v. armor.

You cut that deep and long and the veins and arteries are in their somehwere. So are the Vitals but there's no mechanic for Cuts to the Vitals.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by aesir23

That's not quite right. I think a good draw cut will cut deeper, at least for a light sword like a fencing weapon.

Is this a general technique or a fencing technique? I can't see any rigid blade doing as much outright damage with a draw as with a full swing.

A slight damage bonus against flesh with the significant drawback of being worthless about armor are indispensable parts of the concept for me.

You don't need to make a lot of special exceptions to rules to accomplish that, though. Your version accomplishes your goal, but I think it's inelegant in that there's too many caveats. If you give it a wounding bonus(which is effectively what my build does, as all the veins/arteries thing amount to is a wounding bonus), you can increase the injury done to flesh while not affecting the penetration of armor. By making a weapon Thr that is normally Sw, you make it more accurate to reality by decreasing the armor penetration, but without changing the rules.

I'm not crazy about the mechanics of this: there would literally no reason ever to use this technique except to target veins and arteries.

I'm not convinced of the efficacy of this as anything but a limb-attacking technique, so why shouldn't it be about the veins and arteries? I like this as an attack technique, but I'm having a hard time justifying it being a good all-round combat option--so I wouldn't try to make it one.

Don't think of veins and arteries as a zoomed in, Terminator-style attack that is going for anatomical precision. It's just a method of destroying large areas of surface tissue that are almost guaranteed to cause massive bleeding--that's what the veins/arteries option is there for, which also includes bleeding roll penalties already. Most of the rest is just semantics, IMO.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Is this a general technique or a fencing technique? I can't see any rigid blade doing as much outright damage with a draw as with a full swing.

This is a technique I was taught in Tai Chi as well, though the Jian is closer to an Edged Rapier than a Broadsword anyways. I wonder if it has to do with the flexibility of the blade making swinging attacks less efficient; it feels like it would vibrate or twist on impact, rather than chop cleanly.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'd call this a Draw Cut and in one of their sword episodes the Mythbusters had a reenactor use a a katana on a block of ballisitcs gelatin (without armor covering). The resulting cut was long and 9 inches deep.

If it's the episode I'm thinking of, that was a katana-drawing cut--as in a stroke performed as part of a fast-draw attack, yes? That involves a true swing of the blade at or near full extension. That's not what Aesir23 is describing (unless I'm greatly mistaken). He's talking about a cut that is essentially already touching the target at the start and drags along the flesh like a scalpel.

Also, after watching a lot of Mythbusters and Deadliest Warrior over the years, I'm convinced that ballistics gelatin nerfs the toughness of human skin and the tensile strength of tissue. It's the same average density as human tissue, which means it's good for projectile penetration, but a lot of the high-speed work shows the gelatin shearing under its own weight in ways that I just don't believe real skin and sinew would.

Makes for great replay value, though.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This is a technique I was taught in Tai Chi as well, though the Jian is closer to an Edged Rapier than a Broadsword anyways. I wonder if it has to do with the flexibility of the blade making swinging attacks less efficient; it feels like it would vibrate or twist on impact, rather than chop cleanly.

That's always been the impression I've gotten from people with experience. As a modification to fencing-type flexible blades, I'd accept a +1 damage to the roll--but there's already precedence for several other exceptions to Fencing weapons. That's why I'd rather build it as a general technique with few special clauses except for the fencing weapons.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by benz72

Would you accept a drawcut following an impaling attack? Thrust in and then perform a 'tip cut' (I'm imagining two handed weapons here based on leverage)?

Absolutely that would be possible, the archetypical draw-cut could actually follow a missed thrust. On a hit, I can see the same bonus to attack, but, again, only on a Rapid Strike or AoA double. Good point, worth considering.

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Is this a general technique or a fencing technique? I can't see any rigid blade doing as much outright damage with a draw as with a full swing.[...] By making a weapon Thr that is normally Sw, you make it more accurate to reality by decreasing the armor penetration, but without changing the rules.

I have changed it to a Thrust attack, see my revised version in post #19. This alone does make it less effective than a full swing with most heavier bladed weapons.

I do think that even compared against a regular thrust, a draw-cut is going to be less effective against armor.

I'm sorry if I came off as overly confrontational before, your ideas definitely have merit, they're just not in the direction I wanted to take this technique.

I'm willing to sacrifice elegance for other aesthetics at this point.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I have changed it to a Thrust attack, see my revised version in post #19. This alone does make it less effective than a full swing with most heavier bladed weapons.

I saw that, and I was just completing my thought as to my personal rationale. Recognizing that you're focusing on the Fencing technique is important, as fencing weapons are already special-case heavy. So I get where you're coming from a lot better now.

I do think that even compared against a regular thrust, a draw-cut is going to be less effective against armor.

That is true, and after thinking about it I think the AD (0.5) makes sense as an additional limit on the technique. The loss of elegance is secondary to the fact that DR 1 armor should effectively be quadrupled for Draw Cuts.

I'm sorry if I came off as overly confrontational before, your ideas definitely have merit, they're just not in the direction I wanted to take this technique.

I'm willing to sacrifice elegance for other aesthetics at this point.

Which is fine, I just think that a lot of the aesthetic you're looking for is limited to representing fencing-type weapons. If you're going to fine-tune the technique to represent that, I suggest simply making it a fencing technique and having a separate write-up for rigid-bladed weapons. Otherwise, a few tweaks can make it more universal.

The other important question to ask, with GURPS, is how will this affect Homogenous/Unliving/Etc. targets? It's part of the reason why I see this technique as either an attack of convenience--such as the back stroke of a thrust--or as an attack designed to spill more blood. I don't think it should be effective against most IT types, especially No Blood.

I'd accept your 2nd draft version in my campaign with the change that the damage bonus be a fencing-type weapon only. The to-hit bonus is something that I often toy with but seldom commit to--for instance I waffle towards saying that a Tip Slash should be easier than a standard thrust attack--but in this case I'd keep it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

If it's the episode I'm thinking of, that was a katana-drawing cut--as in a stroke performed as part of a fast-draw attack, yes? .

Not to my memory. I recall it being done without Iaido fast-fraw (which would have been off-topic to the myth).

Again as I recall both this re=-eneactment and the Highlander move it struck me as resembling are done as a close range cut with the blade being driven with hip and torso movement in the follow-through.

Not a full extension cut which I was calling a baseball bat move.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Not to my memory. I recall it being done without Iaido fast-fraw (which would have been off-topic to the myth).

Again as I recall both this re=-eneactment and the Highlander move it struck me as resembling are done as a close range cut with the blade being driven with hip and torso movement in the follow-through.

Not a full extension cut which I was calling a baseball bat move.

Can you direct me to the particular episode of mythbusters, so I can see what you're talking about?

[Figleaf23]

I would be inclined to say that a draw-cut is simply a variation included in the mechanics for All-out- or Committed Attack (Strong).