Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps

The Rampant Gamer · 03-21-2012, 01:20 PM

I've never dealt with things at large scale before, but if you were in a situation where your SM+0 heroes were supposed to be fighting a 100 foot long dragon (call it 35 yards, for simplicity sake) how would you depict said critter on a hex map? How does his size impact movement, and turning?

martinl · 03-21-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rampant Gamer

I've never dealt with things at large scale before, but if you were in a situation where your SM+0 heroes were supposed to be fighting a 100 foot long dragon (call it 35 yards, for simplicity sake) how would you depict said critter on a hex map?

Have you considered sitting down on it?

Quote:

How does his size impact movement, and turning?

It makes them difficult.

Anthony · 03-21-2012, 02:12 PM

I would normally only represent the body of the dragon on the map, as head and tail are likely to be very mobile. I also might not really bother with an exact map, as it will be difficult to use.

I actually have a stuffed animal dragon that's about the right length ;)

David Johnston2 · 03-21-2012, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rampant Gamer

I've never dealt with things at large scale before, but if you were in a situation where your SM+0 heroes were supposed to be fighting a 100 foot long dragon (call it 35 yards, for simplicity sake) how would you depict said critter on a hex map? How does his size impact movement, and turning?

I'd go with markers for its feet and head. As for its size, it doesn't affect movement and turning except of course when dealing with tight spaces.

kdtipa · 03-21-2012, 02:54 PM

Yeah I think when the size is that different there would be problems with using a hex map that you could avoid just by ignoring the hex map and describing the situation instead.

Also, if you're trying to be "realistic", imagine a human fighting a Tyrannosaurus. The human might have a sword and when the T-Rex comes in for an attack the human might get one swing in, but it's not going to bother the dinosaur. And the dinosaur is going to kill the human probably within the next second. It would be a bit like a squirrel trying to take on a human. The human is going to win. The squirrel can probably run away though.

Anyway, a dragon (depending on the kind of dragon you're using) is likely to have a few advantages that the T-Rex doesn't have, like intelligence, and the ability to fly. Might even breath fire if that's the route you're going. In that case... a smart dragon that wants to kill your group of humans is just going to keep strafing them with blasts of fire until they're cooked. If that doesn't work (maybe they have magic fire protection or something), the smart dragon is going to hurl some big rocks or drop them from the sky. If he can separate the party enough that flying in doesn't matter so much, the dragon does a fly-by and picks up one of the humans and just keeps going. That one human is screwed... either getting bit in half, flung a mile into the air, or just crushed in the dragon's clawed grip.

I never understood fantasy settings (like most D&D) where the enormous dragon even gets hit by the sword wielding retard on the ground that thinks they can win. The Dragon's DR alone is probably enough to completely protect it, and if not, it probably has so many hit points that a stupid human's sword swing doesn't matter more than a mosquito bite.

What I'm getting at is that I can't think of a reason to bother with the hex map because the smart dragon isn't going to let the melee types get into range to take a swing unless you count the moment where the dragon picks them up to take a bite out of them. The arrows and spells flung at the dragon at range will have enormous range penalties most of the time, and even if they hit, I doubt they'd do much.

Like the squirrel I think your PCs should just run.

Even if the Dragon is land-locked, at a 35 yard length, let's imagine a 10 yard reach with its neck and head... maybe an 8 yard reach with its claws. So the moment the melee types close distance, they're getting hit on the way in... possibly multiple times before they reach the body of the beast. If the dragon is strong enough to move itself, it's probably strong enough that one hit would end the human running in.

Without high damage modern weapons... I wouldn't go near a dragon that big.

Sorry I kind of wrote a lot there... and not all of it addressed the thread topic... I'd ignore the hex map entirely for this fight like others have said.

Bruno · 03-21-2012, 03:05 PM

Tactical combat section of the Basic Set notes that multihex figures usually measure movement and turning from the head. The really key point as far as the rules are concerned is that you pick ONE hex, and be consistent about it.

With a creature big enough that individual limbs/heads/whatever might be in their own hexes, I would rule (for simplicity) that attacks against those limbs or originating on those limbs have their range/reach measured from/to the hex the limb on the mini is in regardless of where that limb might hypothetically be. It avoids ambiguity. Of course, if you use a plushy dragon or an articulated toy, you can pose it appropriately and then voilla, ambiguity removed.

For multihex limbs (and other hit locations) I would also rule that the attacker gets to pick which hex - which means that you can choose the hex closest, to minimize range penalties, or a more distant hex if it avoids cover penalties, or avoids shooting your buddies, or lets you overlap some other enemies with an area attack.

Shape of the creatures profile on the map will be dictated by whatever I've chosen to represent it. If I've had to resort to an enormous paper cutout, then it'll be the artwork I made or downloaded from the internet, or blew up on a photocopier, or whatever. If it's a plushie or a model, then it's dictated by that. If it's a box of cookies, four baby food jars, a minotaur minature, and a pair of socks, then it's whatever shape that hodgepodge ends up looking like (hopefully secured with some tape).

Bruno · 03-21-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Also, if you're trying to be "realistic", imagine a human fighting a Tyrannosaurus.

They're fighting a gigantic dragon - which is sort of like ductaping two T-Rexes to a seismosaurus :) I would hazard a guess that the PCs are not "realistic", they're super-heros with a medieval patina on them.

If they are realistic, the correct way to handle it is to pull out Action 2 and have a chase scene, as the PCs run away screaming :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I never understood fantasy settings (like most D&D) where the enormous dragon even gets hit by the sword wielding retard on the ground that thinks they can win. The Dragon's DR alone is probably enough to completely protect it, and if not, it probably has so many hit points that a stupid human's sword swing doesn't matter more than a mosquito bite.

They're not "stupid humans" - they're guys who can cleave through giants, heave huge boulders (and CATCH those huge boulders or have them bounce harmlessly off of them), hurl fireballs and fly, and become invisible and then pull your liver out with a pen-knife. Super-heroes. Powered by money :)

safisher · 03-21-2012, 03:17 PM

I like paper miniatures from Junior General:
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/JClick.php?UID=11064

It's often hit and miss, but they are easily modified (cut and paste, re-draw, change colors) in Paint, print up easily on paper or card stock, and if they get smashed, just print up some more.

Jovus · 03-21-2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by safisher

I like paper miniatures from Junior General:
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/JClick.php?UID=11064

It's often hit and miss, but they are easily modified (cut and paste, re-draw, change colors) in Paint, print up easily on paper or card stock, and if they get smashed, just print up some more.

Shouldn't these be joined along the top rather than the bottom? Or am I missing something?

gruundehn · 03-21-2012, 04:11 PM

In the medieval culture the dragon was the ultimate force of chaos. No one can expect to stand up to a dragon, thus the exploits of St. George were so striking.
Modern terms: You have a .45 ACP and you are going up against a fully armed A-10D or F-15E. No dragon is going to be stupid enough to get into close combat or even melee combat with any group of humans. Look at the features of your dragon and intelligently plan a TPK attack, it should be easy.
Killing a dragon should be the extreme high point of a campaign, if it can even be done.
As should be obvious, I do not believe in 500 point dragons, even baby ones. A dragon should be 2000-5000 points (vs 150 point charaters) if it is to be anywhere close to the medieval original.

03-21-2012, 01:20 PM	#1
The Rampant Gamer Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Colorado	Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps I've never dealt with things at large scale before, but if you were in a situation where your SM+0 heroes were supposed to be fighting a 100 foot long dragon (call it 35 yards, for simplicity sake) how would you depict said critter on a hex map? How does his size impact movement, and turning?

03-21-2012, 02:12 PM	#3
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps I would normally only represent the body of the dragon on the map, as head and tail are likely to be very mobile. I also might not really bother with an exact map, as it will be difficult to use. I actually have a stuffed animal dragon that's about the right length ;)

03-21-2012, 02:54 PM	#5
kdtipa Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Southern New Hampshire	Re: Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps Yeah I think when the size is that different there would be problems with using a hex map that you could avoid just by ignoring the hex map and describing the situation instead. Also, if you're trying to be "realistic", imagine a human fighting a Tyrannosaurus. The human might have a sword and when the T-Rex comes in for an attack the human might get one swing in, but it's not going to bother the dinosaur. And the dinosaur is going to kill the human probably within the next second. It would be a bit like a squirrel trying to take on a human. The human is going to win. The squirrel can probably run away though. Anyway, a dragon (depending on the kind of dragon you're using) is likely to have a few advantages that the T-Rex doesn't have, like intelligence, and the ability to fly. Might even breath fire if that's the route you're going. In that case... a smart dragon that wants to kill your group of humans is just going to keep strafing them with blasts of fire until they're cooked. If that doesn't work (maybe they have magic fire protection or something), the smart dragon is going to hurl some big rocks or drop them from the sky. If he can separate the party enough that flying in doesn't matter so much, the dragon does a fly-by and picks up one of the humans and just keeps going. That one human is screwed... either getting bit in half, flung a mile into the air, or just crushed in the dragon's clawed grip. I never understood fantasy settings (like most D&D) where the enormous dragon even gets hit by the sword wielding retard on the ground that thinks they can win. The Dragon's DR alone is probably enough to completely protect it, and if not, it probably has so many hit points that a stupid human's sword swing doesn't matter more than a mosquito bite. What I'm getting at is that I can't think of a reason to bother with the hex map because the smart dragon isn't going to let the melee types get into range to take a swing unless you count the moment where the dragon picks them up to take a bite out of them. The arrows and spells flung at the dragon at range will have enormous range penalties most of the time, and even if they hit, I doubt they'd do much. Like the squirrel I think your PCs should just run. Even if the Dragon is land-locked, at a 35 yard length, let's imagine a 10 yard reach with its neck and head... maybe an 8 yard reach with its claws. So the moment the melee types close distance, they're getting hit on the way in... possibly multiple times before they reach the body of the beast. If the dragon is strong enough to move itself, it's probably strong enough that one hit would end the human running in. Without high damage modern weapons... I wouldn't go near a dragon that big. Sorry I kind of wrote a lot there... and not all of it addressed the thread topic... I'd ignore the hex map entirely for this fight like others have said.

03-21-2012, 03:05 PM	#6
Bruno Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada	Re: Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps Tactical combat section of the Basic Set notes that multihex figures usually measure movement and turning from the head. The really key point as far as the rules are concerned is that you pick ONE hex, and be consistent about it. With a creature big enough that individual limbs/heads/whatever might be in their own hexes, I would rule (for simplicity) that attacks against those limbs or originating on those limbs have their range/reach measured from/to the hex the limb on the mini is in regardless of where that limb might hypothetically be. It avoids ambiguity. Of course, if you use a plushy dragon or an articulated toy, you can pose it appropriately and then voilla, ambiguity removed. For multihex limbs (and other hit locations) I would also rule that the attacker gets to pick which hex - which means that you can choose the hex closest, to minimize range penalties, or a more distant hex if it avoids cover penalties, or avoids shooting your buddies, or lets you overlap some other enemies with an area attack. Shape of the creatures profile on the map will be dictated by whatever I've chosen to represent it. If I've had to resort to an enormous paper cutout, then it'll be the artwork I made or downloaded from the internet, or blew up on a photocopier, or whatever. If it's a plushie or a model, then it's dictated by that. If it's a box of cookies, four baby food jars, a minotaur minature, and a pair of socks, then it's whatever shape that hodgepodge ends up looking like (hopefully secured with some tape). __________________ All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table A Wiki for my F2F Group A neglected GURPS blog

03-21-2012, 03:17 PM	#8
safisher Gunnery Sergeant, Imperial Marines Coauthor, *GURPS High-Tech* Join Date: Oct 2004	Re: Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps I like paper miniatures from Junior General: http://www.juniorgeneral.org/JClick.php?UID=11064 It's often hit and miss, but they are easily modified (cut and paste, re-draw, change colors) in Paint, print up easily on paper or card stock, and if they get smashed, just print up some more. __________________ Buy my stuff on E23. My GURPS blog, *Dark Journeys*, is here. My D&D blog, Grappling Hook, is here. Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.

03-21-2012, 04:11 PM	#10
gruundehn Join Date: Oct 2005	Re: Really Big Monsters and Hex Maps In the medieval culture the dragon was the ultimate force of chaos. No one can expect to stand up to a dragon, thus the exploits of St. George were so striking. Modern terms: You have a .45 ACP and you are going up against a fully armed A-10D or F-15E. No dragon is going to be stupid enough to get into close combat or even melee combat with any group of humans. Look at the features of your dragon and intelligently plan a TPK attack, it should be easy. Killing a dragon should be the extreme high point of a campaign, if it can even be done. As should be obvious, I do not believe in 500 point dragons, even baby ones. A dragon should be 2000-5000 points (vs 150 point charaters) if it is to be anywhere close to the medieval original. __________________ The World's Tallest Dwarf