[TS] Slicing the pie, a question?

[Langy]

Sure sure sure, Vicky - you don't like the idea of Step-and-Wait being able to challenge other Waits - but then that just makes Slicing the Pie have no benefits whatsoever. So do you have any ideas on how to make it so Wait isn't the auto-kill-the-cops rule vs someone trying to perform a maneuver specifically designed for taking out foes Waiting to shoot at you while you're breaching a door?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Langy

Sure sure sure, Vicky - you don't like the idea of Step-and-Wait being able to challenge other Waits - but then that just makes Slicing the Pie have no benefits whatsoever.

Not quite true. The Step and Wait means that:
-If there is someone in the exposed slice that isn't Waiting, you get them before they have a chance to get you (which Step and Attack would also grant if you're okay with that being a Step-acquire-targets-and-Attack).
And:
-If there is no one in the exposed slice, you are in a Wait, so if anyone comes into the exposed slice before your next turn you have the drop on them.

Originally Posted by Langy

So do you have any ideas on how to make it so Wait isn't the auto-kill-the-cops rule vs someone trying to perform a maneuver specifically designed for taking out foes Waiting to shoot at you while you're breaching a door?

Is slicing the pie really used when you literally expect people to be pointing guns through the doorway just waiting for you to make an appearance? (Non-rhetorical question about actual tactics! In GURPS terms, pie slicing certainly works fine if there's someone around the corner who isn't performing continuous 'Wait for someone to expose themselves' Maneuvers.)

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Not quite true. The Step and Wait means that:
-If there is someone in the exposed slice that isn't Waiting, you get them before they have a chance to get you (which Step and Attack would also grant if you're okay with that being a Step-acquire-targets-and-Attack).
And:
-If there is no one in the exposed slice, you are in a Wait, so if anyone comes into the exposed slice before your next turn you have the drop on them.

Is slicing the pie really used when you literally expect people to be pointing guns through the doorway just waiting for you to make an appearance? (Non-rhetorical question about actual tactics! In GURPS terms, pie slicing certainly works fine if there's someone around the corner who isn't performing continuous 'Wait for someone to expose themselves' Maneuvers.)

I'd assume yes, though tossing a grenade of some type (flashbang or frag, probably) first would probably occur if feasible.

That said, what I think should happen in the whole 'Person A waits to ambush Person B; Person B expects the ambush and Slices the Pie' is that both Person A and B fire their shots, even if one or both of them die in that first round of contact.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Langy

I'd assume yes, though tossing a grenade of some type (flashbang or frag, probably) first would probably occur if feasible.

The grenade would cover a lot of sins, though. It would also make a more aggressive entry (Move and Attack right into the room, say) more of an option.

Originally Posted by Langy

That said, what I think should happen in the whole 'Person A waits to ambush Person B; Person B expects the ambush and Slices the Pie' is that both Person A and B fire their shots, even if one or both of them die in that first round of contact.

Hmm, that one is going to require fairly substantial bending to make likely, won't it? Since 'both act simultaneously' normally only comes up as the result of a tie in Cascading Waits.

[DouglasCole]

I took a look at this at some length on my blog.

Tactical Shooting and Slicing the Pie

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

but there's a good reason GIs in city operations in War Two tended to toss a grenade into the room before coming around the door frame.

True, because its still a risky tactic, even with step and wait you're at a penalty on the QC, your still likely to get shot.

Tossing grenades, going though though / making a different entrance. etc all about breaking the situation of the the man in the room know where you wil be, but you not knowing where he'll be.

That leaves aside that tossing grenades (at least explosive ones) may not be feasible for other reasons.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The difference is that normally you can only make the condition while standing, so it only triggers if the enemy closes in.

But you can make you trigger condition not one based on a closing target.

Ultimately my issue is I can see no reason why the action of trying to pre-empt your target or some specific action should mean you lose the ability to move your feet.

Well other than share game balance one, but as I sai the reality of that in play will very much come down to how you treat waits

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...

Is slicing the pie really used when you literally expect people to be pointing guns through the doorway just waiting for you to make an appearance? (Non-rhetorical question about actual tactics! In GURPS terms, pie slicing certainly works fine if there's someone around the corner who isn't performing continuous 'Wait for someone to expose themselves' Maneuvers.)

Slicing the pie is when you don't necessarily know, what's in the room, but suspect it might be bad. It an exploratory tactic, but one designed to keep you safe as possible. The safest tactic is of course not to go into the room, but that may not be feasible

[McAllister]

Mr. Cole suggests step'n'wait has a -2 to everything, and that the person who sees first (Perception or Per-based skill QC) shoots first. I think it's elegant and simple and I support it. There is no free lunch. Lunch costs -2.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by McAllister

Mr. Cole suggests step'n'wait has a -2 to everything, and that the person who sees first (Perception or Per-based skill QC) shoots first. I think it's elegant and simple and I support it. There is no free lunch. Lunch costs -2.

*shrug* Works for me.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm comparing it to Attack because it threatens to make Attack meaningless, particularly in these standoffs. It doesn't make Move-and-Attack meaningless, so I'm not comparing it to it.

Ok but that limits the relevancy for actual play. Especially as you say mainly in these standoffs. However its these standoffs that are likely going to be cascading waits, which is precisely when the step and wait is penalised. You said earlier "a mere -2" well ok rachet it up. But either way -2 on a test where only the Speed stat kicks in is quiet a lot.


What I don't like about those stand offs is that you're both standing like statues while all else goes on around you, or one of you gets shot.

Also if nothing else if set and wait truly did just replace attack, then it would balance out as by that argument everyone would be step and waiting. TBH this would only really occur (if it occurred at all) in melee, and the benefit then is reduced as the overwhelming benefit of attacking first is less in melee than it is in gun fights, especially with the various options.

However I agree if that did happen it would be a lb of cure for a oz of probelm!

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It's not the QC that needs to be penalised. It's something else that the Waiter-B has to give up for the privilege of gaining a QC where he had none under normal conditions.

True but the normal conditions don't make a lot of sense.

As it stands there is no way a someone passing the doorway can do so in way that doesn't involve automatically getting shot at first by some one with a wait. Which is exactly the situation that slicing the pie is designed to mitigate in real life.*

Wait is ultimately a way to seize the initiative later by choosing not to take go earlier. The prescription that you can only do that while standing still is odder each time I look at it

However to restate again I would certainly play up the limitations of wait as previously described.

*that said while i dislike hyper specific single situation only rules adaptations, I also don't like changing an entire system to allow one single specific tactic to work as intended.

A good compromise point might be to restrict step and wait to just this or very similar situations. This might make certain sense as teh steps in slicing the pie are actually very short, way shorter than a GURPS step. It really is just about staring down you gun's narrow field of fire that takes in a tiny slice of the room. Some of this might actually be below the resolution of GURPS.

And as I said earlier it could just be done my playing up the disadvantages of wait.