Hack n' slash?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

slower paced, more complicated.

it deftly not slower paced, rembed dnd tae 6 second turns and absracts out a lot.

GURPS has a 1 second turn thant when the going all out a starting GURPS character can do more in 6 second than some high level Dnd Chacter in teh same 6 seconds.

it just a GURPS you have more control of evens due to less abstraction.

you might scoff at a 'weak +1 sword' ind Dnd but in GURPS the +1 sword pretty decent due to the bell cuver

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

it deftly not slower paced, rembed dnd tae 6 second turns and absracts out a lot.

GURPS has a 1 second turn thant when the going all out a starting GURPS character can do more in 6 second than some high level Dnd Chacter in teh same 6 seconds.

it just a GURPS you have more control of evens due to less abstraction.

you might scoff at a 'weak +1 sword' ind Dnd but in GURPS the +1 sword pretty decent due to the bell cuver

Yes but GURPS combat involves a lot of decision making. So it slows down the pace from the players point of view. Instead of just declaring your target and making a couple of die rolls you have to pick a maneuver, make a die roll or two and the other guy usually also gets a defense roll.
So with inexperienced people or those who just take too long to decide your combats can seem to drag on a long time.
The trick to managing that is make everyone decide quickly and the cards can help as they look through them while waiting for their chance to go and are ready when asked what they are going to do next.

[smurf]

I ran a small combat to see how people would like it.

Pregenerated 25pt characters... these were the guys who wish they they could wish of being hero material.

Each was a one trick pony to see how things behaved.

Eventually the leader was the noble armoured guy effectionately known as Captain Klanky (he had armour and walked slow).

Spear and Shield guy with overconfidence
Paired Tonfa dude with impulsiveness
Zweihander with Beserk
Sword and Shield guy with indecisiveness
Quarter Staff dude with curiousness
Captain Klanky with armour and shield plus code of honour chivalry

Played a couple of games with them and people enjoyed the behaviours. One guy on 'Mission Cliche 1' wanted to know what was over there... aah your impulsive, off you go.

Spear guy thought he would not need his shield and got beaten up by Zombies. Captain Klanky was concerned but the Spear guy managed to convince him he was fine (or rather Captain K did not realise he was fibbing).

Luckily indecisiveness guy managed to get the book back to the alter after a few rolls to be decisive.

It was all a bit of fun.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

slower paced, more complicated.

But also offers more in the way of tactical choices and finesses...which also translates into "lots of difficult and time consuming rules"

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

But also offers more in the way of tactical choices and finesses...which also translates into "lots of difficult and time consuming rules"

A standard resolution of an attack is thus:

1. Roll to hit (with modifiers if appropriate)
2. Target rolls defence (if can defend)
3. Roll and apply damage (for some attacks, this is replaced by a Resistance roll against a non-damaging effect).

GURPS adds the second roll of defence most of the time, this is true. However, everything else has mostly the same building blocks as in D&D.

What accounts for longer turn resolution is primarily people (especially newer players) spending time considering the possible options. Since newer players are more likely to post their first impressions, the reputation of a slow system crops up.

So why the long consideration? Well, in D&D, many options become available with Feats (e.g. called shots to the leg). In GURPS, most such options are part of the skill; if you know Staff, you can use it to Sweep enemies; it's just that being trained in Sweep makes it significantly easier to do than if you 'merely' know the general Staff skill. All that means that whether to use a particular 'feat' depends on the situation (you can check out the recent Guide to Tanking for examples of situational Techniques).

Another interesting note is that, at least in my experience based on gaming D&D/D20, a successful attack in GURPS is likely to have more an effect than one in D&D. This is because GURPS doesn't have such a significant increase in HP as characters gain experience (in realistic games, anyway; in Supers and the like you can expect more HP).
So while getting 3d6 damage past Damage Reduction in D&D is no big deal against a veteran Fighter (easily 15d10 HP total, right?). Getting 3d6 damage past Damage Resistance in GURPS against a veteran 'fighter' is pretty brutal, and can often be a fight-ender. (Of course, there's the issue of getting past defences/armour, but I'm trying not to overcomplicate things.)

[smurf]

I see that and IMO makes GURPS quicker.

Almost, whack, argh, fight over.

Not: whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, fight almost over, followed by whack, argh, whack, argh, whack, argh, fight over.

Also once hit a lot of fighters get minuses to their skills next round thus making the demise of the fighter much more easier than the 'whack a mole' combat of DnD.

[Philomath]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A standard resolution of an attack is thus:

1. Roll to hit (with modifiers if appropriate)
2. Target rolls defence (if can defend)
3. Roll and apply damage (for some attacks, this is replaced by a Resistance roll against a non-damaging effect).

GURPS adds the second roll of defence most of the time, this is true. However, everything else has mostly the same building blocks as in D&D.

In addition to all the great stuff said, have most of the opponents take All-Out Attack (Strong or Determined) [1] + Telegraphic Attack [2]. The first half of that gets rid of those pesky 'Target rolls defense' from above. The second bit give the heroes +2 to all their active defense rolls against this opponent. (If you have Martial Arts, having mooks use the "Coin Toss" Option from the Untrained Fighters box on p. 113 has worked great for me even if the mooks have some skill).

Give the mooks a low skill (they'll be at +4 to +8 anyway) and a weak weapon or low ST (ST 8 or 9, Large Knife or Hatchet or Light Club, Skill 9).

Then, when the heroes are really feeling their oats, ignore all of the above for the boss fight. Give him a decent skill and let him make active defenses.

Using the above most of the fights I run go really quick even if one or two of the complex options get trotted out by one or more of the players.

GURPS Campaigns, p. 365.
GURPS Martial Arts, p. 113.

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Sniperkitty

Hi. I'm Sniperkitty. you may remember me from such recent threads as Loot in GURPS?? and ... well, that's it, but i'm here to ask more questions of seasoned GURPS players.

as you probably know, i'm coming from d20 OGL, and am considering jumping into GURPS. d20 is all about the hack n' slash. Well, it can be made to be so. jump in with a pre-fab character, start rolling your d20 and damage and you're killing monsters.

GURPS is much more geared toward story telling, correct? Is it true that the combat is weaker in GURPS? if so, what can be done to enhance the hack n' slash fun? or have i gathered and heard wrongly?

Deffinately heard wrong... if fact it's GURPS highly detailed Combat System that successfuly allows me to convert D&D players to Gurps.

Even GURPS light (it's free, check it out on e23 if you haven't already) offers more combat depth than D&D... and by the time you graduate to using Martial Arts, you'll be pulling off stunts like Reversed Grip Dagger Slashes to the back of the knee targeting weaknesses in armor, All-Out two-handed deceptive spear thrusts to the vitals, Mighty Blows with axes to cleanly sever limbs, knocking folks out with well-placed blood chokes, and Ripostes, Lunges, Stop-Hits, and just about anything else you can think of... Seriously, D&D is the little leagues when it comes to combat... GURPS is the All-Stars!

The fact that GURPS also does social interactions, investigations, and other non-combat situations well, does not mean it skimps when it copmes to combat... GURPS can handle it all!

[Not another shrubbery]

I keep seeing the thread title and thinking that I should dig up my old Reboot! campaign notes :?

I always kinda liked the two goons.

[ULFGARD]

For new players (or even complex characters) one good option is to do a bit of the math for any combinations in advance for anything the players think they'll have their characters do. This can be complex if their characters have lots of maneuvers, or relatively simple such as Neck Attack-8 (because they have skill-13 and intend to strike at the neck often) or even Telegraphic Attack: Neck-12 (given the same skill-13). A handful of such predetermined modified attacks (noting effects -- cutting attacks to the neck do double damage after penetrating DR, telegraphic attacks are +2 to defend against, etc.). That's handy.

Once you've been through a few combats, have the players look up any options they intend to use prior to their turn so that they're done (or mostly so) before they try to do something exotic. And have a standard "default" action for indecisive players (something like "Swing attack to weapon arm") or assume that they Do Nothing if they can't come up with an action when their turn comes up. After all, the player has had everyone else's turns to think about it. This is no different than enforcing such actions in DnD (nothing is less fun than someone wasting everyone's time while they decide what spell to cast, especially if they've been peppering everyone else with commentary up until their turn).

I've never used the combat cards, but they sound like a good idea if they work for you, and might help enumerate what options are available in combat.