Anyone done Mass Combat?

[Huscurian]

I'm curious...

Has anyone ever done a Mass Combat game? Or at least modeled a world of their own that relies on the Mass Combat supplement by hosting the inspiration on-line for everyone to read? How hard was it to run the game?

I recently obtained my supplement through e23 and am currently having a hard time trying to read through it, though most parts are understandable, explainable. The most difficult to read in that supplement are the lack of mathematical functions to figure out costs of TS (Troop Strength), Raise, Cost to Maintain.

For instance, all I could figure out was that in order to figure out Troop Strength, you multiply it by two from TL, most especially as the TL gets higher. From there, figuring out how much it costs to raise and/or maintain an element gets weirder.

Take for example: In order to create a Roman legion (for fun), it is said the rule of thumb is 10 men per element, though it can go up to 15 should it reach higher TL. I did some math and realized that at 10 men per element, a legion is 6,000 men (from some sources on-line). 6,000 / 10 = 600. That's 600 elements. Breaking it down, it ends up with 10 Centurburiums (about 80 men per centurburium), though roughly it should be 100 at this time to make up a Century. Six Centuries should make up a Cohort. After that ends up ten cohorts to end up creating a legion of its own: 600 complete elements.

It does sound fun as I break it down but does not sound fun when there's very little explanations on how to figure out troop strength, the costs to raise or maintain an element (should the element become unique; for instance, battlemages with long range magic or enchantments for the rest of the army). I haven't figured out to work this in yet but...

My initial question is:

How do you figure out troop strength? Cost to raise or maintain? I already have understood the classes, the features that can be offered, and how to write them in.

I know sometime soon I'll have more questions but for now this is really having me stumped.

[Dwarf99]

I think Maintain=Cost of Living x10, but I only say this because med infantry is 6k

Raise probably could be obtained by doing a loadout and multiplying by 10... or possibly 20 (to account for both gear and time spent.) not a ruling but there ya go.

[Huscurian]

Originally Posted by Dwarf99

I think Maintain=Cost of Living x10, but I only say this because med infantry is 6k

Raise probably could be obtained by doing a loadout and multiplying by 10... or possibly 20 (to account for both gear and time spent.) not a ruling but there ya go.

Maybe so. I do know for a fact that summing up all the percentages from the features of an element can modify the base cost to raise or maintain initially. However, there's no multiplication or mathematical function to figure out the TS.

Originally Posted by johndallman

It's in the tables, not the text. For example, an element of TL2 heavy infantry is from the table on p17 of Mass Combat. They have a TS of 4, cost $40K to raise and $8K to maintain.

Tables are just that: base line costs to raise or maintain. I did figure out that the TL can affect the TS but the costs to maintain must be multiplied by five in order to figure out the costs to raise. This is odd since this is all figuring out through math.

An example:

Suppose I create an ordinary medium infantry, possibly TL3. This infantry would meet the Marius Reformsl and thus become a Legionary. The legionary would have no special features. It's just a run of the mill infantry.

Element: Legionary
TS: 6
Class: -
WT: 1
Mob: Foot
Raise: N/A
Maintain: N/A
TL: 3 3

This is my initial assessment. I multiplied the TS by TL (TL X 2 = TS). The Troop Strength is 6, and until I modify it by adding in new features, it stays that way. What's missing is raise and maintain. How do you figure out how to raise or maintain a simple element such as the one above?

To raise a force would take weeks, according to a chapter in Mass Combat. Every 10K becomes a week but there's no clear indication how much it would cost to raise an army at first in order to properly maintain? If I had to guess by the Cost of Living by GURPS Terms in the BS p. 27, this would come out as TL X Starting Wealth for Raise, then divided by 5. Here it is:

Starting Wealth for TL3 = 1,000. Multiply that by 3 and it ends up 3,000. Divide by 5 equals 600. So...

Element: Legionary
TS: 6
Class: -
WT: 1
Mob: Foot
Raise: $3K
Maintain: $600
TL: 3

Is this even correct? Or should I have already added TL X 10 = Cost to Raise, then Raise / 5 = Maintain? This would round out to $30k for raising, $6k to maintain?

There's no mathematical formula in that supplement to figure out the costs to raise or maintain is what I'm saying. Mass Combat may be great for awesome wargaming abstract-wise but it is too abstract to help figure out how it works.

EDIT: If you're viewing this right now, please refresh! I made some changes.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Huscurian

There's no mathematical formula in that supplement to figure out the costs to raise or maintain is what I'm saying.

I'm not following you clearly here. Are you saying that you feel there should be a set of formulae for calculating costs, TS, etc., rather than looking things up n a table?

If so, while the tables could undoubtedly reduced somewhat this way, you couldn't eliminate them. The ways troops are organised ans equipped are significantly dependent on cultural and technological practices and traditions and aren't laws of nature. You're going to need a table of numbers for the relative costs of troop types whatever you do.

[Huscurian]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I'm not following you clearly here. Are you saying that you feel there should be a set of formulae for calculating costs, TS, etc., rather than looking things up n a table?

If so, while the tables could undoubtedly reduced somewhat this way, you couldn't eliminate them. The ways troops are organised ans equipped are significantly dependent on cultural and technological practices and traditions and aren't laws of nature. You're going to need a table of numbers for the relative costs of troop types whatever you do.

Yes to your first question. I should NOT look up the table for the generic units if I am trying to create a different unit. If I am trying to create an unit that's not founded in the table, what better way than to ask on how the writer of Mass Combat figured out the TS, Class, WT, Cost to Raise, Cost to Maintain, etc.? Or to have obtained that self-same formula in order to create a specific element reflective of its time? He, the writer in question, must have some sort of mathematical formula to figure out how it works per TL.

While the tables may have explained away various troop types dependent on the TL (or for its age, cultural or technological practices), it only serves as the basic, or rather generic, table.

There may be others who are interested in developing newer troop types. For instance, I have heard of people on another forum discussing W40K with Mass Combat. That requires a new complete table of troop types that may reflect the W40K universe. In order to determine the types, there had to be a way to figure out how much TS does a Space Marine have in comparison to a Chaos Marine, how much does it cost to raise or maintain per army. For that, there had to be a clear cut way to calculate without basing on generic unit types in the tables you mentioned. Or my zany idea of gunpowder and magic by infusing "technologist" elements (musketeers) with battlemages (arcane archers of some sort). How do we figure this out?

If there is a table for the relative costs of troops to raise or maintain dependent on TL, or a table reflecting on TS, Costs to Raise or Maintain (supposing that it is without percentage bonuses from additive features that a troop might earn: Night, C3I, Elite, etc.), I'm all for it. I'd like to take a look at it myself.

The way I see it on how to model unit types the way others can build their own armies is by using the TL first. The TL modifies the Troop Strength, and the Cost to Raise, excluding the Cost to Maintain.

Troop Strength is modified in this way: TL X 2 = TS

Cost to Raise is modified by: TL's Starting Wealth X TL(?) = Cost to Raise. If assuming an alternative way, then add an additional 0.

Cost to Maintain is: Cost to Raise Total Cost / 5 = Total Maintain Cost.

That's assuming the troop type built is ordinary without any features or optional classes. Adding the percentages on top of the TS, Cost to Raise or Maintain is a piece of cake in comparison to the initial table from scratch. My formula to figure this out may not be right way but what I am trying to say is that there should be a clear way to do this, even if the supplement is abstract. Even if we do not want to grab an unit right out of the table.

[entitivity]

I thought the idea was to use existing elements and then customize them by adding or removing features and/or altering equipment quality (p. 5). I think the elements are supposed to be atomic. In other words, why can't you build your Roman force using existing elements?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Huscurian

How do you figure out troop strength? Cost to raise or maintain?

It's in the tables, not the text. For example, an element of TL2 heavy infantry is from the table on p17 of Mass Combat. They have a TS of 4, cost $40K to raise and $8K to maintain.