[Technical Solutions] Complete Guide to Tanking in GURPS

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

The Edged Rapier is a 3 lbs. weapon, same as a thrusting broadsword. LTC2 gives it the same DR and HP too. It's probably too good though. A quarterstaff is 4 lbs. The difference isn't that big.

A Polearm is easily 9-12 lbs, and a Medium Shield is 15. A Large one is 25. That's not counting Ogre Bosses with SM+1 weapons.

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

EDIT: also, even if the reduced parry penalties for two handed weapons, dual edged rapiers comes ahead once you start raining attacks:

Assuming Skill 16, combat reflexes, and off hand weapon training for the rapier:
Parry sequence
Staff: 14/12/10/8/6/4
Dual Rapiers: 12/12/10/10/8/8/6/6/4/4

Certainly nice.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A Polearm is easily 9-12 lbs, and a Medium Shield is 15. A Large one is 25. That's not counting Ogre Bosses with SM+1 weapons.
Certainly nice.

Use Low Tech weights for shields if you want sensible results. As for the polearms, IMHO the downsides (U parry in swing mode for most of them, requiring ready maneuvers to change reach for some of them,...) are too severe for their upsides. Of course there might be some polearms worth using, probably the dueling ones, but tehn they are not that heavy.

[Fred Brackin]

A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield. You effectively give up 1 pt of skill for it beign a Hard Skill yet inflict a -2 to block,a -4 to Parry and screw everyone trying to Fence with less than an Edgeed Rapier by doing so. That's a very bread and butter thing to be doing on every attack.

Opponents can adapt by going to Dodge but it's stil worth it to neutralize their probably hgher Parries.

Speaking of penalties on every round, max out Counterattack. That's another -2 to Defense Rolls with no penalty to Skill as for Deceptive Attack.

Then to compensate for the lack of a damage multiplier after penetration you max out Targeted Attacki(Skull). For a -3 that is x4 after armor on every hit.

Add high ST plus Weapon Master and you've got a character that opponents really should not attack one-on-one. They'll attract multiple attackers that way. There is a slight vulnerability to multiple attackers compared to single attacks but this can be compensated for by killing one of your attackers every round.

For people with long memories the name of this character was Nyx the Barbarian and once you got into melee range she was definitely the primnary target even in the presence of a mage like Aldehar the Incendiary. Ignore her to get o him and she'll kill you and your buddies too.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield.

Possibly because it's not relevant to actual tanking. The fundamental feature of a tank is that it's a character who's dangerous to ignore, and yet too tough to easily eliminate. Being dangerous in a straight up fight is nice, but incidental, because it means you aren't being ignored. A flail is not a good weapon for that role -- its advantages don't apply when you're being ignored (since being ignored generally means you're being offered flank or back shots that aren't really subject to parry, block, or shields), it reduces your durability (due to a poor parry, and being unbalanced), and its damage is unexceptional (due to crushing).

In a DF-type game, I'd probably prioritize ST and armor.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Possibly because it's not relevant to actual tanking. The fundamental feature of a tank is that it's a character who's dangerous to ignore, and yet too tough to easily eliminate. Being dangerous in a straight up fight is nice, but incidental, because it means you aren't being ignored. A flail is not a good weapon for that role -- its advantages don't apply when you're being ignored (since being ignored generally means you're being offered flank or back shots that aren't really subject to parry, block, or shields), it reduces your durability (due to a poor parry, and being unbalanced), and its damage is unexceptional (due to crushing).

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If you opponents wish to commit suicide by ignoring a serious threat in melee range then that's another way to solve the problem.

The best way to make sure your fighter isn't ignored is to have him kill anyone who does that.

[Icelander]

Without any question, the best 'tank' in my fantasy game is also the best damage dealer.

He's a big, strong warrior wearing light, but highly magical dragonscale armour and wielding a two-handed claymore that can cut through steel like butter. Hopped up on all the right potions, he does up to 6d+18(2) cut or 3d+14(3) imp and can easily make five attacks per turn. His Parry is, I think, around 23 or so and he has DR 15+. HP 23 and Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction 2. He has always worn a Ring of Jumping and has recently added Boots of Dragonflight to that, so he can easily shift his position on the battlefield if he has to.

He has Teamwork, but not Sacrifical Parry.

Most of the time, enemies tend to be forced to deal with him, even if they'd rather get to squishy casters behind him. After all, would you want him attacking your back or flanks?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A weapon mix not discussed yet is Flail (Morningstar) and shield. You effectively give up 1 pt of skill for it beign a Hard Skill yet inflict a -2 to block,a -4 to Parry and screw everyone trying to Fence with less than an Edgeed Rapier by doing so. That's a very bread and butter thing to be doing on every attack.

Useful for a solo character, but not so much for the defender of squishy ones.

A Flail fails in the following areas:
Parrying enemy attacks (for the squishy), providing disruption (cannot sweep, not good at disarming, not good at slamming, not very versatile, cannot hook). A Flail+Shield tank is essentially a Shield Tank with a bit more flavourful offence, and less incentive to draw aggression.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Speaking of penalties on every round, max out Counterattack. That's another -2 to Defense Rolls with no penalty to Skill as for Deceptive Attack.

I considered it, but given the number of other Techniques, it seems like it will not be affordable. It is neat after parrying for your squishy.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Then to compensate for the lack of a damage multiplier after penetration you max out Targeted Attacki(Skull). For a -3 that is x4 after armor on every hit.

Again, cool, but expensive.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Useful for a solo character, but not so much for the defender of squishy ones.

A Flail fails in the following areas:
Parrying enemy attacks (for the squishy), providing disruption (cannot sweep, not good at disarming, not good at slamming, not very versatile, cannot hook). A Flail+Shield tank is essentially a Shield Tank with a bit more flavourful offence, and less incentive to draw aggression.

.

I'm afraid you and Anthony do not understand the principle of "The Best Defense is a Good Offence".

Killing one of your enemies (or even just making him fail a Consciousness roll) is better than Parrying his attacks, Sweeping him, Disarming him, Slamming him, Hooking him or several other diversionary tactics _all rolled into one_..

The best way to conduct a fight is to end it as soon as possible. That requires successful offence. Dead (as opposed to undead) enemires threaten no "squishies". You want to draw enemies to fight you? Make yourself the biggest threat to their own immediate survival.

Besides, Aldehar managed a perfectly good defense on his own with the Blink Spell as well as having some really rather affordable magic DR. Gurps does not naturally have defensive fighters who somehow draw "aggression" and there's no real reason it should have "squishies" either.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm afraid you and Anthony do not understand the principle of "The Best Defense is a Good Offence".

Killing one of your enemies (or even just making him fail a Consciousness roll) is better than Parrying his attacks, Sweeping him, Disarming him, Slamming him, Hooking him or several other diversionary tactics _all rolled into one_..

This certainly is a very viable tactic. When you can do it easily.

But if it takes about 5-10 attacks by your primary damage dealer to kill the enemy, but only 1-2 attacks by the designated tank to disable said enemy (even temporarily), while the enemy has enough damage-dealing ability to kill your squishy wizard or the like in 1-2 attacks, dedicated tanking becomes important. Passive tanking is also important when you can't kill every enemy damage-dealer before they reach your squishy.

There are many situations where a dedicated tank is unnecessary in favour in several tanky DPS characters and possibly an offtank. These situations would be commonly described as 'PVP' (combat with other Adventurers).

The purpose of the thread is exploring and cataloguing advice for tanks for situations where the tank is needed. Though differentiating situations where tanking is or isn't needed might be helpful.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

This certainly is a very viable tactic. When you can do it easily.

But if it takes about 5-10 attacks by your primary damage dealer to kill the enemy, but only 1-2 attacks by the designated tank to disable said enemy (even temporarily), .

5-10 attacks is "roll until you score Critical Hit territory". Any melee fighter ought to be able to down an opponent on that time scale or he's a "squishie" himself. You'd only last 10 rounds against my Flail specialist by having a Level Boss's Dodge score. That's the whole pont of nuking the opponent's Parry.

Then there's the question of "Why do you think it's easier to score with a disabling attack than a damaging one?". It seldom is. There are usually relatively normal Active Defenses and/or Contests v. all these trick attacks. None of them is a free win. Usualy, when you score with one of them you could have done damage instead.

A simple ST 17 with M0orningstar is 3D+2. That penetrates basic Plate with a Major Wound even just to the Torso. My faceless hordes of squishy-hunters seldom wear Plate anyway and even Chain is only DR2 v. Cr. So it's more likely 10 pts of penetrating damage. Skull damge is much worse even if you give the enemy a DR4 pot Helm and a 2 pt Skull.

Then you start adding in Weapon Master and magic and things get much harsher and very rapidly too.

I don't know if some of you out there are tryign to build defensive "tanks" because you only give your fightrers ST12 or what but that is not the way to do things.