Rapier Wit is kinda awesome

[Gef]

Yes, rapier wit is awesome, especially with Words of Power (+100%) and Reliable (+50%) - you stun a whole group at one time. Throw out the special effect and treat it as a sound-based superpower, and it punches above its weight in points, but I think you gamed it correctly as a free action. As a Word of Power, sonic stunner, or even as a snappy comeback or zinger, maybe a derogatory nickname the subject hasn't heard since gradeschool, then it makes sense as a free action. Otherwise, I'd think it'd take some kind of setup. How fast can you actually hurl an insult? "You fight like a dairy farmer!" takes me about a second.

GEF

[whswhs]

On one hand, I'd think seriously about not allowing it to be a free action. It does, after all, have the effect of an attack! If someone wants to be able to use Rapier Wit and a weapon strike, I'd make them buy Extra Attack. If you want a rationale, consider that coming up with that devastating a witticism takes full concentration.

On the other hand, there's an analogy between Rapier Wit and Affliction, which also has stun as a default effect. You could allow the other sorts of affliction as modifiers to Rapier Wit. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[Langy]

While it's not actually explicitly stated in the book, I think the intention was that you can't use Rapier Wit on the same opponent more than once per 'encounter', else you'll wind up in a stun-lock situation. I had a link to a Kromm-quote on this subject earlier when I was dealing with a Words of Power version of Rapier Wit (for a character able to inflict people with the ability to see past the veils of creation and into a Cthulhu-mythos reality; eventually, I rebuilt it as Terror, which is also a free action to use once 'on'), but don't anymore.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Langy

While it's not actually explicitly stated in the book, I think the intention was that you can't use Rapier Wit on the same opponent more than once per 'encounter', else you'll wind up in a stun-lock situation.

That's exactly what I ended up with, and I thought it seemed a little extreme. I'd love to see more clarification on it, if it's meant to be once per encounter. That'd still be pretty strong, if used right. Certainly worth 5 points.

[Mailanka]

Here's the only thing I could find about Rapier Wit by Kromm

(There were more, but basically repeated the same thing).

Incidentally, I had assumed much the same thing, and she had stun-locked her opponent by mocking his (supposedly secret) passion for a geisha, and I had judged that you really need to know something about someone to make it work, and it turns out that's true.

It doesn't fix the stun lock situation, but I also personally find that you need to say something. It's not enough to say "I insult him and roll 10 on my Public Speaking roll." You should, you know, at least try. Between these two things, it's pretty well in control.

I just wondered if I was missing something, and it seems (from a more careful search of the forum) that I'm not. It's pretty open to abuse if not monitored.

[Lord Carnifex]

I'm in accord with whswhs here. Drop the "free action" aspect. I'd make it work more like a feint, myself.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by whswhs

On one hand, I'd think seriously about not allowing it to be a free action. It does, after all, have the effect of an attack! If someone wants to be able to use Rapier Wit and a weapon strike, I'd make them buy Extra Attack. If you want a rationale, consider that coming up with that devastating a witticism takes full concentration.

On the other hand, there's an analogy between Rapier Wit and Affliction, which also has stun as a default effect. You could allow the other sorts of affliction as modifiers to Rapier Wit. . . .

Bill Stoddard

Or you could simply allow it as it is on grounds of Genre. How many swashers (east and west) have we all seen where a tonguelashing was used to brutal effect? It's genre perfect for attacks to morale to be deadly in their own way.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Running a practice fight with one of my players in my samurai campaign, and the topic of her (chi-based) Rapier Wit comes up. She's a sassy lass, and she's got gobs of Public Speaking (thanks to her enormous Charisma), so it's a pretty effective technique. As we play out the fight, it becomes obvious that Rapier Wit + Attack is a devastatingly effective combo.

Rapier Wit is, according to the book (and I've seen nothing that contradicts it) a free action. Nothing stops you from rolling Public Speaking every turn as you mock your opponent mercilessly to get a mental stun on him. Once he's stunned, it's unlikely to last long (most of her opponents have Combat Reflexes, so they'll snap free of the stun quickly), but since it's free, she can just attack once she's landed her insult and she'll probably get through their defenses.

Now, I'm not saying it's overpowered. Because it's chi-based, Mind Shield, Chi Resistance and numerous other traits will resist. Unfazeable makes you immune (and I've ruled that Indomitable does the same, because it's my game and I can), and there's plenty of ways to defeat it.

But for 5 points, it seems pretty impressively powerful. Is there something I'm missing? Or am I doing it right, and it's a totally great power if you're built for it?

Kromm Said:

Originally Posted by Kromm

What's supposed to be the balancing factor is that the user has to know something about his victim that can flabbergast said victim if stated aloud. In theory, Rapier Wit is completely worthless against an unknown foe, faceless no-name mook, etc. And it's supposed to work once, not over and over to cause perpetual stun lock. I admit that these limitations aren't really clear from the wording, though . . . something I'll have to fix if I ever get the chance.

I'd rule that it only works once per embarrassing secret.

Also:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Sure, but as you say . . . it's obvious. The whole point of Rapier Wit is that you aren't just stating the blindingly obvious. You're carefully crafting a laser-like stab at somebody's inner, most embarrassing weaknesses. You're not just mocking his clothes, say, but mocking his favorite clothes, and the tailor from which he got them, by making a comment about how his father dressed and the manner in which the clothes were purchased. That kind of thing.

And:

Originally Posted by Kromm

You have to know something meaningful about your specific target, and then turn that into an insult. Rapier Wit is worthless against mysterious hit men and spies, randomly encountered thugs, golems and zombies with no personal life, strangers on the street, and anybody with any skill at all at hiding his true self or past. It's specifically intended for old rivals, public figures, and others you know something about. If you want it to work on just about any ordinary person, you must add Words of Power, +100% -- and if you want it to affect golems, robots, undead, and so on, you'll also need Cosmic, +300%.

I'm not saying that it still isn't somewhat cheap, but it's probably a good idea to start the price comparisons in light of the correct assumptions.

And I hasten to add that it's a cinematic trait for silly cinematic campaigns, where things like Bulletproof Nudity and Melee Etiquette are free for everybody already. You're effectively paying 5 points for another cinematic rule that only benefits you. Arguably, that's 4 points more than the perk it ought to be in a game like that.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Kromm Said:I'd rule that it only works once per embarrassing secret.

Thank you very much, sir. I was leaning in that direction already. Word of God helps persuade me the rest of the way. Kromm's right: Rapier Wit could use a lot of clarifications

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Kromm's right: Rapier Wit could use a lot of clarifications

So why don't they put something in the errata? If you just read the rules and don't go hunting for answers in the forums, you'll be under the impression that RW can be activated any time as a free action against any enemy that doesn't have Unfazeable.
And it's on two different templates in DF, which is mostly about combat, but even there it's not clear how to use it in a fair and balanced way. Using Kromm's secret house rules, it seems pretty much useless in DF; using the RAW, it seems ridiculously over-powered.