Livestock space requirements, stampedes, nuisance

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

And oxen really are valuable, much more valuable than sheep, particularly in this benighted savage country where everyone keeps sheep and no one has decent cattle.

Slaughter the sheep. Save the hides for the wool. Eat the mutton, or preserve what you can't eat. Make sure to offer a fair number of the sheep to the gods, as a sacrifice to seek divine blessings.

Bill Stoddard

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Ok, a little more context helps. I would still slaughter the livestock that I can't keep in a pen or enclosure. Sure, it will hurt in the long term, but in the short term, not having to deal with panicked, frightened and BIG animals seems to outweigh the economy.

It's not ideal, but such is war.

Hmmm...

We've established that there are 250 fairly generous-sized cattle stalls present, each of which is about 70 square feet in size. 50 of the stalls are already occupied when the detachment from Fort Sisheptep arrives. I am told, in this thread, that you can safely put two cows in each stall for a short period of time.

The question is, could you put more than that into these 250 spacious stalls, if you knew that the alternative was to kill the beasts? And how long would it take to move 200 oxen and 500 cows through a 20' wide gate, drive them some 150 yards through the courtyard and past the officer's homes and one of the barracks, and finally get them all into the stalls? For a total of 3 beasts per 70 square feet stall, which is incredibly tight.

You have a total of 15 minutes before the enemy attacks and the available labour force is 200 skilled herdsmen and maybe another 200 of the slaves among the garrison who are not completely ignorant of animals. This labour force will need to be divided between the cattle and the ovicaprids, of course.

In front of those stalls, is a small fenced enclosure, suitable for keeping 200 sheep. It is however large a temporary pen for sheep needs to be, assuming that it was meant for storing those 200 for a week at most (but no larger than 20,000 square feet, at the very most, preferably only half that). It is already full of those 200 sheep when more arrive. Given that sheep presumably need more space for a week's stay in a pen than they can survive with for a few hours, I am assuming that some of the 1000 extra ovicaprids being driven into the fort can go into this enclosure.

They'll be using the same 20' wide gate as the cattle and the labour pool driving them will have to come from the same 400 men who know anything about animals and who can be spared from actually manning the walls and being kept in reserve to repel an assault.

Given these parameters, how much of the livestock ought the defenders of Fort Anhurmose to be able to pen in, assuming that the organisation goes absolutely perfectly?* How much would a normal success, i.e. about what could be expected from competent, but not brilliant, officers, NCOs and men, be worth?

*Presumably represented by the total margin of success on the two checks I mean to make being 10+.

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Icelander

PC experts, flying over the walls and landing in front of the main gates and then using magic

This strikes me as the key factor. If the defenders were preparing for what might be a long siege, then they should slaughter the excess animals. If they expect a quick and decisive battle, that changes the equation.

Are the defenders expecting the PCs to have magic? Do the defenders have magic of their own?

[Celjabba]

If the enemy is 15 minutes behind, and a relief army is know to be coming 'soon', is it really a good idea to herd hundreds of heads of livestock through a 20' gate and a bridge?

I know, they are worth a lot. Still, I think it is a recipe for a disaster, especially in a realistic game, which you seem to be playing.

I think. We need some expert farmer advice here.

If all work, great.
But if you get a panic, the enemy is going to arrive looking at a huge mess of trampled peoples, dung and blood.
With any luck, a angry officer will execute a cow or two on top of the drawbridge, preventing it to be raised in time...

In my opinion, the only way for it to work is a lot of luck and a competent leader who have a good idea how to handle cattle, or who is not to proud to put an herder in command of the whole mess.

And I repeat my question : if the cows are giving milk, how are you going to milk them 3 to a stall ?

Celjabba

[Celjabba]

My suggestion of stampeding them through the gate didn't take into account a drawbridge, very skilled enemy with great leadership and player PC with magic...
And it was assuming my usual type of game, where the rules of fun and heroic trump realism.
So, forget it.

Celjabba

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hmmm...

We've established that there are 250 fairly generous-sized cattle stalls present, each of which is about 70 square feet in size. 50 of the stalls are already occupied when the detachment from Fort Sisheptep arrives. I am told, in this thread, that you can safely put two cows in each stall for a short period of time...
<snip>

You could do all of these things at least , but you would be looking at 3-4 hours to do so; if everything went absoulutely perfectly, you could maybe squeeze that down to 2 hours, but in 15 minutes, your defenders will be doing well to get all the livestock into the fort at all, let alone into the stalls.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Akicita

This strikes me as the key factor. If the defenders were preparing for what might be a long siege, then they should slaughter the excess animals. If they expect a quick and decisive battle, that changes the equation.

Neither side is entirely certain how fast a relief army can get there. The PCs, for their own reasons, want to take the fort immediately, damn the risks.

The defenders expected either an immediate nighttime assault at the gate (which is what the PCs are doing) or at the very least an all-out dawn escalade.

However, if the initial attack is repulsed, the defenders will have to settle in for a day or two under siege. On the other hand, the PCs' force would probably not be willing to lose all that many men taking this fort and they would certainly not be willing to be caught still besieging it by a field army that could outnumber you.

Originally Posted by Akicita

Are the defenders expecting the PCs to have magic? Do the defenders have magic of their own?

The defenders do expect magic and they expect that their own divine magic will be more prevalent and more powerful. They are right about having more spellcasters, but they will be unpleasantly surprised at discovering the sheer power of the PC casters.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Slaughter the sheep. Save the hides for the wool. Eat the mutton, or preserve what you can't eat. Make sure to offer a fair number of the sheep to the gods, as a sacrifice to seek divine blessings.

Bill Stoddard

How long would you say it took to slaughter 1,200 sheep?

Another poster thinks that it is unlikely that in the 15 minutes that the defenders have, they can do more than just get the beasts inside the fort, nevermind to the stalls. If they meant to slaughter some or all of them, how long does that take? Does LT state how long it takes if you don't dress the meat, just kill the beast and try to prevent the others from stampeding until their turn comes?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Another poster thinks that it is unlikely that in the 15 minutes that the defenders have, they can do more than just get the beasts inside the fort, nevermind to the stalls. If they meant to slaughter some or all of them, how long does that take? Does LT state how long it takes if you don't dress the meat, just kill the beast and try to prevent the others from stampeding until their turn comes?

That's all probably true. I wasn't clear on the time pressure. I would think that if you are slaughtering the sheep in haste, the other sheep, and the cattle, are likely to smell the blood, panic, and stampede.

I'm thinking, though, that if you have that short a time to get inside the fortress before the enemy come to the gates and kill anyone who's outside, you're crazy if you wait around to herd livestock. If there's some sort of organized plan for getting certain specific livestock inside, fine, but if not, the people who insist on herding their sheep are going to find themselves between a closed gate and an enemy army.

Bill Stoddard

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by whswhs

That's all probably true. I wasn't clear on the time pressure. I would think that if you are slaughtering the sheep in haste, the other sheep, and the cattle, are likely to smell the blood, panic, and stampede.

That's what I thought too, which is why I am thinking it will only be last resort.

Originally Posted by whswhs

I'm thinking, though, that if you have that short a time to get inside the fortress before the enemy come to the gates and kill anyone who's outside, you're crazy if you wait around to herd livestock. If there's some sort of organized plan for getting certain specific livestock inside, fine, but if not, the people who insist on herding their sheep are going to find themselves between a closed gate and an enemy army.

Bill Stoddard

There was a truce in effect and the wording of it was 'until Ser Sawati Buikhu and his men have made it safely into Fort Anhurmose'. Taking advantage of that, the garrison of Fort Sisheptep, deciding that holding both forts would be impossible, drove their livestock over the road which Ser Sawati Buikhu was marching down with his men and joined his force. Then they proceed to enter Fort Anhurmose together.

Ser Sawati Buikhu merely made sure to be the last man through the gates. I guess he could have deliberately lingered to give the garrison more time to stow the animals somewhere safely, but he's not the sort to engage in quite that much legalistic misinterpretion of the terms of the truce. Besides, the PCs would probably have regarded it as false faith and attacked as soon it become clear that Buikhu didn't mean to enter immediately, seeing as they were following the column at 200 yds. The defenders needed to close the drawbridge in order to feel safe.