Livestock space requirements, stampedes, nuisance

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, because opening the gates would let in the enemy. Also, because the enemy has some 2,500 men surrounding the fort, which means that they'd have little trouble intercepting a herd of animals*.

*Not exactly stealthy, cattle and ovicaprids aren't.

I am not sure the enemy would be able to enter if you stampede a couple hundreds cows through the gate.
Let alone stopping them if they are 'properly motivated' to run.

It would depend a lot on the gate geography, of course.
Many defensive improvement would fail this tactic immediately.
But if the gate swing inward, and there is clear ground in front of it both side, it could work.
I would definitively keep the caprid in over the cows, easier to feed.

Something else to remember, if the cows are giving milk, they have to be milked, or it will get unpleasant fast.

Celjabba

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I am not sure the enemy would be able to enter if you stampede a couple hundreds cows through the gate.
Let alone stopping them if they are 'properly motivated' to run.

They would not be able to enter during the stampede, perhaps. But they'd be able to prevent the drawbridge from being drawn back up after it and enter then.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I would definitively keep the caprid in over the cows, easier to feed.

Something else to remember, if the cows are giving milk, they have to be milked, or it will get unpleasant fast.

Celjabba

The Mulhorandi army ought to be there in three days or less. They are hoping for reinforcements the next day. They shouldn't have to keep the animals in there for long.

And oxen really are valuable, much more valuable than sheep, particularly in this benighted savage country where everyone keeps sheep and no one has decent cattle.

[Gorkamorka]

If defending I would seriously consider planning an aimed stampede at the enemy lines before the manage to lay siege.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

If defending I would seriously consider planning an aimed stampede at the enemy lines before the manage to lay siege.

Exchanging the benefits of having a fortress for the ability to let 700 bovines and 1,200 ovicaprids rush at the foe?

I doubt that herbivores used as attack vehicles are lethal enough to justify it. Even if they killed or disabled half the enemy force, something which I find highly optimistic, that would still leave two about equal forces on the open ground.

When choosing between defending a fort while outnumbered 2:1 or fighting an equal force in the open, conventional military strategy would be to pick the fort.

I just don't see any way to have the animals stampede at the enemy without, you know, lowering the drawbridge and thus opening the front gates with the enemy less than 200 yds away from it. And when happens then is that they'll form up with spears front, but leave a wide gap in their lines where the animals can run through. Then they send some of their light troops, composed of country folk, to rustle up the animals when they calm down. In the meantime, they would most certainly send some of their elite to run to the moat, where the drawbridge went down, and make sure that when the animals have passed through, there isn't time to pull it back up.

Net result: The enemy now has possession of $1,400,000 of oxen, cattle and sheep-goat. Around 500 of their light troops are occupied collecting this unexpected bounty, but that doesn't matter, they've still got 2000 troops to assault your wide-open gate with against your total of 1,250 defenders.

[Gorkamorka]

I'm just applying 'Player Logic' (TM) to the situation. You take a bad situation (Bigger enemy army), grab a random local element (Lots of bovine), tell the GM how you have a brilliant plan to use the two together (Stampede the bovine at the enemy and then charge the disoriented foe), then you watch the GM squirm as he has to choose between TPKing the party and ending the campaign he has spent months preparing or letting you get away with something mind-numbingly stupid and derail the plot.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

I'm just applying 'Player Logic' (TM) to the situation. You take a bad situation (Bigger enemy army), grab a random local element (Lots of bovine), tell the GM how you have a brilliant plan to use the two together (Stampede the bovine at the enemy and then charge the disoriented foe), then you watch the GM squirm as he has to choose between TPKing the party and ending the campaign he has spent months preparing or letting you get away with something mind-numbingly stupid and derail the plot.

If that's an accurate summation of the way some players think, I hate those players with the fury of a thousand suns.

In any case, the commanders of the defence are NPCs and the players are some of the commanders of the larger army, preparing to assault Forth Anhurmose.

The PCs actually have a brilliant plan to screw the enemy, ungulants and all. It involves a small team of expert.... yes, PC experts, flying over the walls and landing in front of the main gates and then using magic to melt the chains that hold up the drawbridge. Just have to hold off the whole garrison for a couple of minutes while they melt the chains and wait for their own men to charge over the drawbridge once it falls down. Piece of cake. What's 120 combat rounds between friends? It's not as if more than six people can charge them at a time!

They'd be overjoyed if the enemy made that insanely dangerous job uncessary by opening up the fortress.

[Gorkamorka]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If that's an accurate summation of the way some players think, I hate those players with the fury of a thousand suns.

Really? I know I have done stupid things like that, although not on purpose. I blame high levels of caffeine and lack of sleep.

Originally Posted by Icelander

The PCs actually have a brilliant plan to screw the enemy, ungulants and all. It involves a small team of expert.... yes, PC experts, flying over the walls and landing in front of the main gates and then using magic to melt the chains that hold up the drawbridge. Just have to hold off the whole garrison for a couple of minutes while they melt the chains and wait for their own men to charge over the drawbridge once it falls down. Piece of cake. What's 120 combat rounds between friends? It's not as if more than six people can charge them at a time!

The PCs being on that side of the conflict sounds like a lot more fun. You do know that at one point in the 120 seconds of death a few bulls will stampede to the only exit they can see, through the combat, trough the gate and across the fallen drawbridge. It´s your job as a DM to make it so.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

Really? I know I have done stupid things like that, although not on purpose. I blame high levels of caffeine and lack of sleep.

I'd never have an event turn out in a manner I find implausible just to rescue PCs from player stupidity. Better an end to a campaign by honesty TPK than a prolonged suffering by playing in a world I can't relate to and am not interested in.

No matter what the entertainment, be it movies, books, RPGs or computer games; if the storyline appears artificially scripted to favour the protagonists simply because they are protagonists, I can't enjoy it. Well, maybe ironically, but I don't want to game to enjoy my games ironically.

Originally Posted by Gorkamorka

The PCs being on that side of the conflict sounds like a lot more fun. You do know that at one point in the 120 seconds of death a few bulls will stampede to the only exit they can see, through the combat, trough the gate and across the fallen drawbridge. It´s your job as a DM to make it so.

I do know that bulls will stampede around any and all combat there, yes. I was looking for, among others, reasonable target numbers on a 3d to roll below for that.

As in, while fighting in the courtyard, maybe a 4 or less on the 3d means a slam attack from a random angle. Or maybe higher than that.

The PCs, though, would probably rather contend with a charging ox than a charging line of elite Shining Shields hoplites or a group of Anhurite holy warriors and priests. Sir Michael Carragher, the best swordsman of the PCs, can probably kill six oxen in a turn easily enough and given that he's going to be defending a 20' wide opening in the earthworks that leads to the gates, that would stop the charge well enough.

An ox may have high HP, but it lacks the 16+ defences of elite foes.

[Verjigorm]

Ok, a little more context helps. I would still slaughter the livestock that I can't keep in a pen or enclosure. Sure, it will hurt in the long term, but in the short term, not having to deal with panicked, frightened and BIG animals seems to outweigh the economy.

It's not ideal, but such is war.

[Sword-dancer]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, because opening the gates would let in the enemy. Also, because the enemy has some 2,500 men surrounding the fort, which means that they'd have little trouble intercepting a herd of animals*.

*Not exactly stealthy, cattle and ovicaprids aren't.

Butcher them, or hold them behind the gates to let them out when the enemy assaults.

Decurio

You´re in command now.

and dispose of this fool

Putting the boltpistol back in the holster