Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men

oldgringo2001 · 11-02-2011, 12:32 PM

I started this thread to see if anyone else is interesting in developing a campaign world based on a great but largely forgotten science fiction board game. Greg Coskikayan's Web & Starship has only one flaw: You really need three players to have a good game. Otherwise it is as good or better than Imperium, the game that inspired Traveller.

The gist of the game is that poor little Earth finds itself in the middle of a war between two big alien empires. The Gwynhyfarr use FTL starships; the Pereen don't have FTL but they do have Gates that can move them from planet to planet instantly, once they have one in place. Earth has acquired both technologies but hasn't developed them very far. If the Earth can hold on long enough, it can develop both technologies beyond either side. The trick is not getting made into alien kibble in the meantime.

Well, I'd feel bad just stealing Greg Costikyan's work, and, besides, I've lost my copy of the game, which is long out of print. If anyone out there does have a copy, I'd appreciate some input. We'll call the side with the spaceships the Alien Space Bats or ASBs, and the others, the ones with the Gates, who like to be on the ground or below it, the Mole Men.

In the spirit of the game, I think we should use a 3-D star map. You can get info on every star within 50 light years for free at Winchell Chung's site, a considerably larger volume of space than represented on the original game map. There's also thread on this forum which will be helpful: Near Star Map. Just do the systems with bright, famous stars and the ones most likely to have an a habitable planet. You can ignore systems that have nothing but M-class dwarves and/or white dwarves; they weren't shown on the game map, and they won't be of great interest politically and economically. They can always be filled in later where necessary. Chung's site also gives the formula to turn equatorial coodinates into galactic coordinates if you'd like to see how the local neighborhood would look on a Star Trek- or Traveller-style map. There used to be a site with an app that would do this for any star in a big database, but it's gone now.

Pick out a few systems at the edge of “known” space that are more or less opposite one another. These will be the advanced bases for the ASBs and the Mole Men at the start of the campaign.

In the game, the Mole Men couldn't have one of their Gates further away than “12” from the next nearest star with a gate and remain linked up to their web. The ASBs couldn't move a fleet more than “10” from a world they held, although they had some fast, light ships that could move up to “12” as long as they ended their move no more than “10” from a world they held. The units were either half-parsecs or two light years, and each game-turn represented four years. That's playable in a grand strategic wargame, but it makes for some challenging roleplaying if it takes years to get your spaceship to the next dungeon—excuse me, planet.

Unless, of course, the trip seems instant inside the spaceship, barring the time using the in-system drives to get between the planet and the jump point, and then the next planet.

More conventionally, we can borrow the Traveller Jump Drive, more or less, which gives Jump-5 to the ASB's but a mere Jump 2.5 to poor Terra—exactly the same relative advantage in “reach” enjoyed by the Vilani over the Terrans at the beginning of the Interstellar Wars. The Mole Men can jump between any gate pair 6 parsecs or less apart; the poor Terrans can are going to have to improve their Gate range at least 50% just to link to Alpha Centauri.

The Mole Men either can't or won't use spaceships, so they build probes to link to new worlds. These probes must use reaction drives—rockets of some kind. But fuel isn't a problem, because the Gate each one carries can provide as much fuel as the engines can handle. Realistically, the probes should probably accelerate up to 80% or 90% of the speed of light if there's time, coast for awhile, and then decelerate so they will be going slow enough to land the Gate when they arrive. Anyone at the target of the probe, of course, will have years of warning, so the chance of any single probe getting its gate down should be slim against TL9 or TL10 defenses. So, what would be a “probe” in the game represents a huge swarm. Not many have to get through to start the invasion. Plus, if the Mole Men are feeling extra-mean, they could not slow down some of the probes. Using the good old e=mv^2 formula, each ton in any object travelling at 80% lightspeed would provide the equivalent of more than 13 billion megatons on impact. Of course, there may not be much left worth invading.

Turhan's Bey Company · 11-02-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgringo2001

We'll call the side with the spaceships the Alien Space Bats or ASBs

Did somebody say Alien Space Bats?

vitruvian · 11-02-2011, 01:00 PM

In my campaign, the Alien Space Bats are the same entities as the bat-winged humanoids, Vespertilio Homo, described in the New York Sun as observed on the Moon by Herschel in 1835. The ASBs are therefore also aptly described as Moonbats, and the actual hoax of the Great Moon Hoax was the delusion induced by these Moonbats that the discoveries were not real, and to this day that the Moon is an airless, uninhabited sphere.

oldgringo2001 · 11-02-2011, 01:11 PM

I had no idea the ASBs were copyrighted. Actually I got the phrase from a meme referred to me by a poster to my Enigma-2/3 thread. And I've known about the Sun moon bat hoax for a very very long time. Have you read The Big Book of Hoaxes yet?

Actually, I'm toying with the idea of giving both these races IQ-1. Since their technology never improves, maybe they don't know how to improve it; maybe they got it from the Even Alien-er Space Bats, or the Traders, or a Precursor/Ancients site, or made deals with some of the Deveels, those devilish dimension-hopping master salespersons Robert Asprin kept warning us about most of his life.

I read a recent SF short story about an invasion of Earth by a race that had FTL ships, but were armed with matchlock muskets. Maybe these people fight all their battles with swords, spears, teeth, and claws. If there are enough of them, they would still be a threat.

Gordon R. Dickson wrote a series of stories about the Hokas, alien invaders who weren't all that bright.

Nosforontu · 11-02-2011, 02:17 PM

Don't know the game that this setting is based off of but the Pereen seem to be at a fairly huge disadvantage if they don't use space ships at all. How do they defend their Orbitals from kinetic bombardment? Is their anything in setting that would prevent the other side from simply turning unmanned FTL ships into a missile and accelerating it at Pereen worlds until they crack and the Pereen are forced to surrender?

The next question is how large is the gate that these probes create and how much time does it take to build one once they reach the ground? Do these gates have any innate property that prevents them from being used by the other side or from simply being destroyed on the ground by the defenders army?

Finally of course is what type of tech do the three base powers use beside their distinct FTL drive systems?
1: Overall Tech levels for each
2: Nanotech level and types for each of the three
3: Robotic/computer tech for the three
4: Biotech levels and type for the three
5: Weapons and ground combat capabilities of three need defining.

oldgringo2001 · 11-02-2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

The Pereen seem to be at a fairly huge disadvantage if they don't use space ships at all. How do they defend their Orbitals from kinetic bombardment?

Unless the Pereen probes are an “off the shelf” technology they can't modify, they can build unmanned spacecraft. “Orbitals” weren't mentioned in the game, but the Pereen could build planetary defense units, which they could move through their gates. Realistically, they should be able to use kinetic energy weapons and the other “routine” options for planetary bombardment from space; an effective planetary defense would really need at least some off-planet components. The PD units in the game are pretty good, only slightly less powerful than the Heavy Fleets, and they are cheaper to build, I think.

It could be that the Pereen, or Mole Men, or whatever we settle on for a “real” name for the setting have some kind of biological defect that makes the FTL drive fatal to them. Humans and other higher animals couldn't survive aboard Bussard Ramships in Larry Niven's Known Space universe until a technological fix was invented, although their frozen embryos were usually OK. If the Terrans in this game develop a technological fix (or a Biotech fix) that allowed the Pereen to use FTL ships, they could have a very good new card to play in the Great Game, couldn't they?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

The next question is how large is the gate that these probes create and how much time does it take to build one once they reach the ground? Do these gates have any innate property that prevents them from being used by the other side or from simply being destroyed on the ground by the defenders army?

A Gate on the wargame scale would really represent a whole system of individual gates and the infrastructure to support them. The probes would arrive in swarms. The Pereen would be ready to exploit any individual gate probe that lands, or maybe even gets close enough for parachutes or drop capsules. The Pereen are supposed to be evolved from burrowers, so the probes might be designed to bury themselves on arrival. Remind you of any recent Spielberg movie? Any old H.G. Wells story?

As for the rest of the questions Nosforontu raised, I haven't—or we haven't—worked out much detail yet. The easiest way to do it for me would be to use Interstellar Wars as the prototype and modify it to fit the changed back story. But that isn't the only way to go. The thread title started as a joke, but going the IOU route is fine, too: Crafty Earthlings vs. Dueling Spaceballs.

For now, I'm assuming the default version is hard SF, with Earth struggling into TL10 and the two empires with a mix of mature TL9 and TL10. If they aren't using bought, borrowed, or relict technology, both the alien races should be mostly Hidebound as individuals or as a culture. The two empires can be any size at all as long as they are roughly equal in the power they can apply in the region around Terra. It might be interesting to have one or both of them to be refugee nations, something like the Vandals and the Goths fleeing the even more warlike Huns. Or the Mole Men could be a former slave race of the Alien Space Bats—that certainly gives a splendid excuse for a hatred that lasts from generation unto generation.

oldgringo2001 · 11-03-2011, 01:39 AM

A visit to Board Game Geek provided me with the "Game Start" stars for the the rival menaces to Earth. They don't have to be used in this setting, of course, but the math has already been done for them.

Gwynhyfarr (Alien Space Bats)

Rho Eridani, Zeta Tucanae, LFT 1747, Gamma Pavonis, Delta Pavonis

Pereen (Mole Men)

Xi Ursae Majoris, 61 Ursae Majoris, Chara, The Flying Star, Beta Comae Berenices

"Chara" and "The Flying Star" are real stars, but these names have obscure origins. Frankly, they were "ported" over from the starmap for SPI's old Universe RPG. Once upon a time I found their more acceptable designations (they're both in the Gleise catalogs somewhere) but I've forgotten them and I've lost all the notes I made. I've lost the house I made them in, too, but it's been a few years. Stay tuned.

Update

I think Beta Comae Berenices must be "Chara" and "The Flying Star" Groombridge 1830, which has the third highest proper motion of any star known star. It's G8V, but it's thought to be a halo star, very old, and it may have very strong flares. It's not currently on the list of nearby stars which are most likely to have a planet like Earth. Still, it might have a planet that used to be like Earth, and maybe some very ancient, very interesting ruins.

Starship · 11-03-2011, 02:39 AM

you might want to check out a video game called Sword of the Stars. Each race has their own unique FTL method.

~~combatmedic~~ · 11-03-2011, 04:02 AM

I really like this one!

I've always been a fan of bat-men.

Mole-men sound even more fun.
:)

If you aren't developing this for any commercial use or publication, I think it's fine to use the basic ideas from the boardgame. Just make sure to give him all due credit!

oldgringo2001 · 11-03-2011, 06:31 AM

If we really stay Alien Space Bats and Mole Men, I think the ASBs should be patterned on the diminutive Bats-man Harvey Kurtzman created for the early MAD--the females should remind us of Robin, and should be at least twice as tall. Something like Marvin the Martian might also work, with the female of the species a lot taller, better looking, and, of course, smarter. Think Athena or Minerva.

The Mole Men should look like the Underminer at the end of The Incredibles, who in turn looks like the moles on Japanese "men at work" signs--peeking out of a whole, wearing a hardhat that covers their eyes. If we want to mix in some Dwarf stuff, they can have beards and/or braids

On the hard SF side, the Gwynhyfarr are supposed to be descended from flyers. Maybe in our setting they can fly when they are young, but lose the ability when they grow older and larger. The one picture of the two races depicts the Gwynhyfarr as much larger than the Pereen facing him--or her.

Maybe the Gwynhyfarr have an extreme sexual dimorphism. Maybe the males, more numerous, are short-lived and never grow so big they lose the ability to fly. Females have much longer lives, and are only able to breed when they are quite large. This is also the time when they come into their full intelligence. So, the pilots, the officers, and all the things that need intelligence and education are in the hands of the females, who are far fewer than the males and take a long time to reach breeding age. The males are probably aggressive as all get-out, but keeping them focused on the enemy rather than one another may be a constant headache.

The Pereen should be more of an egalitarian bunch, maybe even with some kind of limited version of Hive Mind. Hobbits with lasers? The one pictured on the box looks something like a shar pei, one of those super-wrinkly dogs from China.

11-02-2011, 12:32 PM	#1
oldgringo2001 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Silicon Valley	Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men I started this thread to see if anyone else is interesting in developing a campaign world based on a great but largely forgotten science fiction board game. Greg Coskikayan's *Web & Starship* has only one flaw: You really need three players to have a good game. Otherwise it is as good or better than *Imperium, the game that inspired Traveller. The gist of the game is that poor little Earth finds itself in the middle of a war between two big alien empires. The Gwynhyfarr use FTL starships; the Pereen don't have FTL but they do have Gates that can move them from planet to planet instantly, once they have one in place. Earth has acquired both technologies but hasn't developed them very far. If the Earth can hold on long enough, it can develop both technologies beyond either side. The trick is not getting made into alien kibble in the meantime. Well, I'd feel bad just stealing Greg Costikyan's work, and, besides, I've lost my copy of the game, which is long out of print. If anyone out there does have a copy, I'd appreciate some input. We'll call the side with the spaceships the Alien Space Bats or ASBs, and the others, the ones with the Gates, who like to be on the ground or below it, the Mole Men. In the spirit of the game, I think we should use a 3-D star map. You can get info on every star within 50 light years for free at Winchell Chung's site, a considerably larger volume of space than represented on the original game map. There's also thread on this forum which will be helpful: Near Star Map. Just do the systems with bright, famous stars and the ones most likely to have an a habitable planet. You can ignore systems that have nothing but M-class dwarves and/or white dwarves; they weren't shown on the game map, and they won't be of great interest politically and economically. They can always be filled in later where necessary. Chung's site also gives the formula to turn equatorial coodinates into galactic coordinates if you'd like to see how the local neighborhood would look on a Star Trek- or Traveller-style map. There used to be a site with an app that would do this for any star in a big database, but it's gone now. Pick out a few systems at the edge of “known” space that are more or less opposite one another. These will be the advanced bases for the ASBs and the Mole Men at the start of the campaign. In the game, the Mole Men couldn't have one of their Gates further away than “12” from the next nearest star with a gate and remain linked up to their web. The ASBs couldn't move a fleet more than “10” from a world they held, although they had some fast, light ships that could move up to “12” as long as they ended their move no more than “10” from a world they held. The units were either half-parsecs or two light years, and each game-turn represented four years. That's playable in a grand strategic wargame, but it makes for some challenging roleplaying if it takes years to get your spaceship to the next dungeon—excuse me, planet. Unless, of course, the trip seems instant inside the spaceship, barring the time using the in-system drives to get between the planet and the jump point, and then the next planet. More conventionally, we can borrow the Traveller* Jump Drive, more or less, which gives Jump-5 to the ASB's but a mere Jump 2.5 to poor Terra—exactly the same relative advantage in “reach” enjoyed by the Vilani over the Terrans at the beginning of the Interstellar Wars. The Mole Men can jump between any gate pair 6 parsecs or less apart; the poor Terrans can are going to have to improve their Gate range at least 50% just to link to Alpha Centauri. The Mole Men either can't or won't use spaceships, so they build probes to link to new worlds. These probes must use reaction drives—rockets of some kind. But fuel isn't a problem, because the Gate each one carries can provide as much fuel as the engines can handle. Realistically, the probes should probably accelerate up to 80% or 90% of the speed of light if there's time, coast for awhile, and then decelerate so they will be going slow enough to land the Gate when they arrive. Anyone at the target of the probe, of course, will have years of warning, so the chance of any single probe getting its gate down should be slim against TL9 or TL10 defenses. So, what would be a “probe” in the game represents a huge swarm. Not many have to get through to start the invasion. Plus, if the Mole Men are feeling extra-mean, they could not slow down some of the probes. Using the good old e=mv^2 formula, each ton in any object travelling at 80% lightspeed would provide the equivalent of more than 13 billion megatons on impact. Of course, there may not be much left worth invading. Last edited by oldgringo2001; 11-02-2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: cosmetic

11-02-2011, 01:00 PM	#3
vitruvian Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men In my campaign, the Alien Space Bats are the same entities as the bat-winged humanoids, Vespertilio Homo, described in the New York Sun as observed on the Moon by Herschel in 1835. The ASBs are therefore also aptly described as Moonbats, and the actual hoax of the Great Moon Hoax was the delusion induced by these Moonbats that the discoveries were not real, and to this day that the Moon is an airless, uninhabited sphere.

11-02-2011, 01:11 PM	#4
oldgringo2001 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Silicon Valley	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men I had no idea the ASBs were copyrighted. Actually I got the phrase from a meme referred to me by a poster to my Enigma-2/3 thread. And I've known about the *Sun* moon bat hoax for a very very long time. Have you read *The Big Book of Hoaxes* yet? Actually, I'm toying with the idea of giving both these races IQ-1. Since their technology never improves, maybe they don't know how to improve it; maybe they got it from the Even Alien-er Space Bats, or the Traders, or a Precursor/Ancients site, or made deals with some of the Deveels, those devilish dimension-hopping master salespersons Robert Asprin kept warning us about most of his life. I read a recent SF short story about an invasion of Earth by a race that had FTL ships, but were armed with matchlock muskets. Maybe these people fight all their battles with swords, spears, teeth, and claws. If there are enough of them, they would still be a threat. Gordon R. Dickson wrote a series of stories about the Hokas, alien invaders who weren't all that bright. Last edited by oldgringo2001; 11-02-2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Thought of something else.

11-02-2011, 02:17 PM	#5
Nosforontu Join Date: Sep 2004	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men Don't know the game that this setting is based off of but the Pereen seem to be at a fairly huge disadvantage if they don't use space ships at all. How do they defend their Orbitals from kinetic bombardment? Is their anything in setting that would prevent the other side from simply turning unmanned FTL ships into a missile and accelerating it at Pereen worlds until they crack and the Pereen are forced to surrender? The next question is how large is the gate that these probes create and how much time does it take to build one once they reach the ground? Do these gates have any innate property that prevents them from being used by the other side or from simply being destroyed on the ground by the defenders army? Finally of course is what type of tech do the three base powers use beside their distinct FTL drive systems? 1: Overall Tech levels for each 2: Nanotech level and types for each of the three 3: Robotic/computer tech for the three 4: Biotech levels and type for the three 5: Weapons and ground combat capabilities of three need defining.

11-03-2011, 01:39 AM	#7
oldgringo2001 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Silicon Valley	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men A visit to Board Game Geek provided me with the "Game Start" stars for the the rival menaces to Earth. They don't have to be used in this setting, of course, but the math has already been done for them. Gwynhyfarr (Alien Space Bats) Rho Eridani, Zeta Tucanae, LFT 1747, Gamma Pavonis, Delta Pavonis Pereen (Mole Men) Xi Ursae Majoris, 61 Ursae Majoris, Chara, The Flying Star, Beta Comae Berenices "Chara" and "The Flying Star" are real stars, but these names have obscure origins. Frankly, they were "ported" over from the starmap for SPI's old *Universe* RPG. Once upon a time I found their more acceptable designations (they're both in the Gleise catalogs somewhere) but I've forgotten them and I've lost all the notes I made. I've lost the house I made them in, too, but it's been a few years. Stay tuned. Update I think Beta Comae Berenices must be "Chara" and "The Flying Star" Groombridge 1830, which has the third highest proper motion of any star known star. It's G8V, but it's thought to be a halo star, very old, and it may have very strong flares. It's not currently on the list of nearby stars which are most likely to have a planet like Earth. Still, it might have a planet that used to be like Earth, and maybe some very ancient, very interesting ruins. Last edited by oldgringo2001; 11-03-2011 at 09:46 AM. Reason: addition

11-03-2011, 02:39 AM	#8
Starship Join Date: Dec 2010	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men you might want to check out a video game called Sword of the Stars. Each race has their own unique FTL method.

11-03-2011, 04:02 AM	#9
~~combatmedic~~ Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: a crooked, creaky manse built on a blasted heath	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men I really like this one! I've always been a fan of bat-men. Mole-men sound even more fun. :) If you aren't developing this for any commercial use or publication, I think it's fine to use the basic ideas from the boardgame. Just make sure to give him all due credit!

11-03-2011, 06:31 AM	#10
oldgringo2001 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Silicon Valley	Re: Alien Space Bats vs. the Mole Men If we really stay Alien Space Bats and Mole Men, I think the ASBs should be patterned on the diminutive Bats-man Harvey Kurtzman created for the early MAD--the females should remind us of Robin, and should be at least twice as tall. Something like Marvin the Martian might also work, with the female of the species a lot taller, better looking, and, of course, smarter. Think Athena or Minerva. The Mole Men should look like the Underminer at the end of The Incredibles, who in turn looks like the moles on Japanese "men at work" signs--peeking out of a whole, wearing a hardhat that covers their eyes. If we want to mix in some Dwarf stuff, they can have beards and/or braids On the hard SF side, the Gwynhyfarr are supposed to be descended from flyers. Maybe in our setting they can fly when they are young, but lose the ability when they grow older and larger. The one picture of the two races depicts the Gwynhyfarr as much larger than the Pereen facing him--or her. Maybe the Gwynhyfarr have an extreme sexual dimorphism. Maybe the males, more numerous, are short-lived and never grow so big they lose the ability to fly. Females have much longer lives, and are only able to breed when they are quite large. This is also the time when they come into their full intelligence. So, the pilots, the officers, and all the things that need intelligence and education are in the hands of the females, who are far fewer than the males and take a long time to reach breeding age. The males are probably aggressive as all get-out, but keeping them focused on the enemy rather than one another may be a constant headache. The Pereen should be more of an egalitarian bunch, maybe even with some kind of limited version of Hive Mind. Hobbits with lasers? The one pictured on the box looks something like a shar pei, one of those super-wrinkly dogs from China.