Wizard Vows

[Faolyn]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

In Dragonlance, the only weapons wizards use are staffs and daggers. And they only wear textile armor, if that. If I turned these into vows, what would they be worth?

Vow: Wizard Weapons Only - The only weapons you use are staffs, daggers, and knifes.

Vow: Wizard Armor Only - The only armor you use is textile armor.

Both of them seem to each be as restrictive as No edged weapons [-10]

It's been a while since I played D&D, but IIRC, the reason they were so limited in weapons is that they supposedly didn't have the time to learn combat skills, so they only weapons they could use were simple and relatively light bonk-or-stab things. I doubt that counts as a Vow in GURPS terms. The armor thing was (again IIRC) because metal screwed up the "flow" of magic. That could be seen as a limitation on Magery.

If you actually want it to be a Vow, what happens if they break it? Do they get shunned by other mages or lose their ability to cast magic, or what?

[aesir23]

Most D&D mages also have Pact on their Magery so that it doesn't work if they break their vows regarding armor.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

In Dragonlance, the only weapons wizards use are staffs and daggers. And they only wear textile armor, if that. If I turned these into vows, what would they be worth?

Vow: Wizard Weapons Only - The only weapons you use are staffs, daggers, and knifes.

Vow: Wizard Armor Only - The only armor you use is textile armor.

Both of them seem to each be as restrictive as No edged weapons [-10]

I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.

The weapon restriction, at least, is explicitly a social rule rather than part of the nature of magic. Wizards who don't follow the Towers' rules do use non-traditional weapons (Knights of the Lily carry swords, I know).

[Dragondog]

Not that I haven't found the discussion illuminating, but most of it has had nothing to do with my initial question.

I'm not looking to mirror D&D, I'm looking for game world color. So the traditions of using these weapons and armor have nothing to do with magic per se, its completely a social/traditional thing.

Originally Posted by Faolyn

It's been a while since I played D&D, but IIRC, the reason they were so limited in weapons is that they supposedly didn't have the time to learn combat skills, so they only weapons they could use were simple and relatively light bonk-or-stab things. I doubt that counts as a Vow in GURPS terms. The armor thing was (again IIRC) because metal screwed up the "flow" of magic. That could be seen as a limitation on Magery.

If you actually want it to be a Vow, what happens if they break it? Do they get shunned by other mages or lose their ability to cast magic, or what?

You could say the same thing about not using edged weapons, but that is a vow.

IDHMBWM, but IIRC you only get points for Vow if you cannot break it.

Originally Posted by mhd

Well, at least in GURPS you can "buy it off", i.e. you can say that "in my campaign, Wizards have these compulsory disadvantages" and if the player can give a reason why he doesn't have these (and/or trades them in for another set), he's good to go. Unless it's about the actual magical metaphysics or something like that…

For Dragonlance, I can certainly see the point. It had a pretty brutal system for Wizardry. Once you reach a certain, erm, level of your abilities, you had to take that horrendous test that might kill you. If your campaign starts in a CP range where this can't be taken for granted, "Vow: Have to take test that might ruin or kill me" is certainly in order…
(And If I'm not mistaken, they did hunt you down if they noticed you've become too powerful and didn't subject yourself to their silly classifications)

It's tradition. You don't have to take the vows, but there are consequences for those that don't.

The campaign takes place after the Test, at least for focused wizards. And yes, being a Renegade is an option.

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

I like the idea of using point values for secrets to determine the worth of a vow better than the suggestions used in the book. IF you break your vow, you should acquire a disadvantage worth twice the cost of the vow (at least until you make amends or pay it off).

If the guild will revoke his license so that he essentially has a -4 reputation amongst guild mages and can be jailed for practicing his craft that should be worth 5pts for the (-10pt) rep possibility and then half the cost of the enemy you may have chasing after you for practicing in civilized lands...

An interesting concept. It's been a while, so I need to check what happens to those that do not follow these traditions

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I wouldn't. While in standard GURPS, the weapons and armour of wizards are explained by the lack of wizards with the time and inclination to become body builders and the existence of the Staff spell, the even more restrictive rules of D&D are best represented as a limitation on your Magic Aptitude.

What if the person isn't a wizard. What would the Vow be worth then? In my mind there's a difference between not having learned how to do something yet, and perhaps you never will, but you could if you wanted to, and a Vow never to learn/use it. Not using edged weapons is a valid vow after all.

[Ts_]

Ugh, thinking about this for a while, pricing Vows correctly is very messy.

First of all, I'd look at two broad aspects of a Vow:
Is it completely within your control or can outside forces make you break the Vow? Compare "Always try to help the poor" with "Always help the poor". You will break the latter at some point if the universe is against you. (This is related to how Secret works against you. It's not just about keeping your mouth shut, but the universe trying to uncover your secret on a roll of 6 or less on a 3d6.)

Then consider the effect of the Vow while you adhere to it:
That's some disadvantage. Vow ("Never speak") is essentially Cannot Speak (Mute). Vow ("Pray for 2 hours / day"), is somewhat like Extra Sleep 2 hours / day.

Then consider what happens when you break the Vow (willingly or not). This is some new disad that lasts for a certain period. The Basic Set and Vows from the Chi-based power modifier or for Clerics seems to assume something like a 1 month quest to restore your Vow. But it could range from a day of misfortune to permanently losing all your Magery.

Factor in how easy it is to break the Vow. "Never speak" is trivial to circumvent in an emergency, so are various forms of Pacifism or weapon restrictions. (Just grab a better weapon and put on non-textile armor.) If you have fastened your entire life (say, this gives -1 to ST and -1 to FP, as you need some effect of this Vow), there is little reason to suddenly give it up. The ST won't come back any time soon, the FP might be back on the next day. More extreme cases might require you to rebuild your life (and character sheet), in which case you could have just as well bought off the disadvantage.

Then comes the pricing:
A Vow that you can willingly keep forever is worth at most as much as the disadvantage it gives you while you keep it. It might be worth significantly less if you can break it easily and the penalty is light. Half of the disad value for something easily breakable seems appropriate for the month of recovery.

A Vow that the universe can make you break is worth the above plus a fraction of the disadvantage you gain when you break the Vow.

That's really the best guideline I can come up with.

So, for the examples in this thread:
Not using certain weapons / armor is maybe a quirk each for a low ST mage. It's also easy enough to break in an emergency. (Use a spear with staff skill or shoot a crossbow from default with lots of aiming and Luck or wear heavy armor when meeting the assassin at night.) Consequences are presumably loss of Magic Powers for the typical duration of a few weeks.
From this, I'd say it's a Quirk (Wizards don't like metal weapons & armor) [-1].

If you permanently lose Magery or suddenly die or have to retire, it still would be only [-2] (the full value of these equipment restrictions) because it's entirely within your choice to not use these weapons. This assumes that if someone puts you into chainmail while unconscious, that this doesn't count as breaking the Vow.

If even touching such weapons or being forcefully put into armor gives you severe penalties, the Vow becomes a more severe disad. Say, metallic armor destroys your Magery (but only if you wear it) and this is a well-known weakness of wizards and someone can force you to put on armor ... Then if you break this Vow you acquire the 50 point Disad equivalent to losing your Magery and Spells permanently. However, to make you break this Vow you would have to be at the mercy of someone else, so at that point people could just as well kill you ... So maybe only 10% of the gained disads apply, giving you a [-2 + -5] Vow.

As a comparison, a Secret on average shows up in 10% of the game sessions, and you can try to prevent its revelation and nobody has to subdue you just to make your secret public. The Secret is worth 50% of the disads that permanently replace it. So something that probably shows up just as often but is much harder to work against you should be worth a lot less. That's why I chose 10% of the new disad.

With this in mind, some of the Vows in the Basic Set seem badly priced ... The "no edged weapons" [-10] is just crazy. Yes, it's the most important class of weapons (in TL3), but many fighters can live just fine with spears or hammers or using blunt sword-like things if necessary. Well, the GM could always screw you by only dropping +5 swords in the loot or using encounters that are immune to anything but cutting damage, but that would be weird.

On the other hand, the Vow ("Never Speak") [-10] seems to be reasonable compared to Cannot Speak ("Mute") [-25].

Regards
Ts

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Ugh, thinking about this for a while, pricing Vows correctly is very messy.

First of all, I'd look at two broad aspects of a Vow:
Is it completely within your control or can outside forces make you break the Vow?

[snip]

Then consider what happens when you break the Vow (willingly or not). This is some new disad that lasts for a certain period. The Basic Set and Vows from the Chi-based power modifier or for Clerics seems to assume something like a 1 month quest to restore your Vow. But it could range from a day of misfortune to permanently losing all your Magery.

Factor in how easy it is to break the Vow. "Never speak" is trivial to circumvent in an emergency, so are various forms of Pacifism or weapon restrictions. (Just grab a better weapon and put on non-textile armor.) If you have fastened your entire life (say, this gives -1 to ST and -1 to FP, as you need some effect of this Vow), there is little reason to suddenly give it up. The ST won't come back any time soon, the FP might be back on the next day. More extreme cases might require you to rebuild your life (and character sheet), in which case you could have just as well bought off the disadvantage.

By RAW, Vows cannot be broken. Even in an emergency. The player wants his character to say something, but he has Vow (Keep silent at all times) the character cannot say anything. If the player tries anyway, I'll overrule him.

Same thing with Pacifism, it cannot be broken. Same thing with weapon restrictions. If the only weapon you have available is one you have Vowed not to use, you will not use it.

Then comes the pricing:
[snip]
So, for the examples in this thread:
Not using certain weapons / armor is maybe a quirk each for a low ST mage. It's also easy enough to break in an emergency. (Use a spear with staff skill or shoot a crossbow from default with lots of aiming and Luck or wear heavy armor when meeting the assassin at night.) Consequences are presumably loss of Magic Powers for the typical duration of a few weeks.
From this, I'd say it's a Quirk (Wizards don't like metal weapons & armor) [-1].

If you permanently lose Magery or suddenly die or have to retire, it still would be only [-2] (the full value of these equipment restrictions) because it's entirely within your choice to not use these weapons. This assumes that if someone puts you into chainmail while unconscious, that this doesn't count as breaking the Vow.

If even touching such weapons or being forcefully put into armor gives you severe penalties, the Vow becomes a more severe disad. Say, metallic armor destroys your Magery (but only if you wear it) and this is a well-known weakness of wizards and someone can force you to put on armor ... Then if you break this Vow you acquire the 50 point Disad equivalent to losing your Magery and Spells permanently. However, to make you break this Vow you would have to be at the mercy of someone else, so at that point people could just as well kill you ... So maybe only 10% of the gained disads apply, giving you a [-2 + -5] Vow.

As a comparison, a Secret on average shows up in 10% of the game sessions, and you can try to prevent its revelation and nobody has to subdue you just to make your secret public. The Secret is worth 50% of the disads that permanently replace it. So something that probably shows up just as often but is much harder to work against you should be worth a lot less. That's why I chose 10% of the new disad.

With this in mind, some of the Vows in the Basic Set seem badly priced ... The "no edged weapons" [-10] is just crazy. Yes, it's the most important class of weapons (in TL3), but many fighters can live just fine with spears or hammers or using blunt sword-like things if necessary. Well, the GM could always screw you by only dropping +5 swords in the loot or using encounters that are immune to anything but cutting damage, but that would be weird.

On the other hand, the Vow ("Never Speak") [-10] seems to be reasonable compared to Cannot Speak ("Mute") [-25].

Regards
Ts

There are no game mechanical penalties for breaking a Vow, as they cannot be broken. Not even in an emergency.

A Vow has the same cost no matter who you are. No matter if you're low ST or high ST. Warrior or wizard.

I'm looking for costs based on RAW, not costs that disregard it.

Wizards may like swords and metal armor. They may even love them and collect them. But they will not use them in combat. It's not the same thing.

[Faolyn]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

You could say the same thing about not using edged weapons, but that is a vow.

I'm not entirely sure what bit you were replying to here. If it's the bit about not having the time (supposedly) to learn how to use weaponry, that's not a vow, that's a statement that says that, in the world of the twenty-siders, magic takes all frickin' day to learn. If it's about the idea that magic can't flow through metal armor, well, I can't help you there, because then in D&D they shouldn't be able to enchant metal armor and weapons. But nobody said that D&D made much sense, anyway. :)

Originally Posted by Dragondog

IDHMBWM, but IIRC you only get points for Vow if you cannot break it.

If you can't break it, that's a curse or something. Vows are breakable--you're not supposed to break it, but you can. I think you're confused because the book says "Many Vows end after a specified period of time," but those are vows like "for the next year, I won't eat cake." If it's a Vow and you break it, you feel guilty. If it's a curse, then you, I dunno, get turned into a cake yourself. Or get smote by the gods of evil baking.