TL and Mnemonics

[nik1979]

what would be the TL assignment of various Mnemonics?
If Writing, Alphabets, Philosophy, Logic, the Scientific Method fell in the category of mnemonics (I know I'm at the borderline definition of mnemonics, please help with a better definition). By Mnemonics, expending the definition to include any mental tool that allowed a person to perform a greater degree of mental productivity.

What would be the effect of using more advance mnenomics in lower TLs? Consider TL8 Cognitive Sciences, Judgement-Decision Making Sciences or Business Sciences. All those mental tools used to make people more objective, if not objective, minimize the affect of bias or identify the kind of cognitive bias and used in a TL1 to TL6 environment.
Ex. What would happen if Scientific Method and Case Study came to being used as early as TL1 to TL5?

As a GM would you limit the use of advanced mnemonics in your Lower Tech Games?

What would sufficiently High TL(TL9, TL10, and TL11) mnemonic techniques look like? How would you treat them? If the Method of Loci counts as eidetic memory, how would more advance "brain hacks" of the higher TL become? other potentially mnemonic techniques: facial action coding system, cognitive behavioral therapy, game theory, etc how would you adjudicate them?

[Polydamas]

It would help if you would define some of the things you are referring to. Since mnemonics specifically refer to memory techniques, how about "intellectual tools and technologies"?

Generally, in the real world things are invented after the necessary infrastructure has appeared. Introducing them into an earlier society requires a long stage of “building the tools to build the tools.” For example, modern science requires lots of instruments to measure things, the printing press (to spread results), and a large community of interested people who can exchange letters, magazines, and books and are interested in both theory and practice. When those three things came together in 17th century England, we got a scientific revolution. Many other things require the science of statistics, which was invented in 17th century Europe (although the collection of statistical data goes back to the early Bronze Age). I'm not a good enough historian of mathematics to understand why it took so long for mathematicians to start to be able to handle probability and statistics.

How would a community of preindustrial people interested in being better businessmen (for example) form, how would they develop these new methods, how would they convince outsiders that they worked, and how would they train students?

Artes memoriae are clearly TL “preindustrial” (the linear TL system is almost useless at TL 2-4). People in the renaissance were still using Aristotle and Cicero as textbooks for these arts, so I don't know if they got any more effective.

[johndallman]

"Mnemonics" is not a good word for what you seem to be thinking about, because it's quite specific and a very small fragment of the field. "Memeplexes" is closer to correct, but has the disadvantage of being or recent coinage, and having been over-used.

I would be cautious about assigning these things to TLs at all. Consider the ancient Greeks, who in some ways had a vastly more advanced mental culture than the surrounding societies, but were pretty much the same TL.

The memeplexes of a culture seem to be a large part of what defines a specific culture; Oriental culture is still quite different from Western, even though both are currently at about TL8. Both tend to see themselves as superior to the other, although they are superior at different things.

Be cautious about all ideas that claim to remove bias. They often include a specific bias, while denying it.

Cultures exposed to new ideas react in a wide variety of ways, although initial rejection is very common. This can make for some very interesting gaming, if the players are inclined that way.

(For example, in my current campaign, an NPC Roman Empire noblewoman in her late fifties, who's a Cabal member, has attached herself to the PCs, who are Cabalists from 1720 England, because they are fascinating, and spray new-to-her ideas around frequently. She's finding this "scientifica methodo" they use really interesting, and is learning how to use it, although she likes to have them check her reasoning. The long walks, strange smells, rain and occasional monsters are a price worth paying.)

One should not let PCs re-invent and use advanced ideas too freely. Play the characters as the products of their culture, not 21st Century folk down a dungeon.

As for the effects of ideas we haven't invented yet ... we don't know what they're like. This is a limit of science fiction, in prose or film or game form. You get to make up the answer. Here's one you probably don't want to use, but it's a lot of fun.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by nik1979

As a GM would you limit the use of advanced mnemonics in your Lower Tech Games?

Could you give an example of someone trying to use advanced mnemonics in a low-tech game? I would handle "I am going to invent an ars memoriae" just like "I am going to invent gunpowder" (lots of hard rolls against boring intellectual skills, with entertaining consequences on a failure, difficult trips to find books and materials and interested people, and lots of in-game obstacles).

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would handle "I am going to invent an ars memoriae" just like "I am going to invent gunpowder"

Fewer deaths on critical failures, but it's a lot easier to fool yourself as to the value of the product.

[Lamech]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Could you give an example of someone trying to use advanced mnemonics in a low-tech game? I would handle "I am going to invent an ars memoriae" just like "I am going to invent gunpowder" (lots of hard rolls against boring intellectual skills, with entertaining consequences on a failure, difficult trips to find books and materials and interested people, and lots of in-game obstacles).

Isn't the method of loci ancient? In fact, weren't they used a lot more before things like writing? If someone said "I want to invent the art of memory" I would say: "Well time to start studying, its five CP and you lack a teacher."

Also I wouldn't let gunpowder be "invented" until TL 4ish*. You can't intentionally accidentally discover something, so until you understand the principals behind it... I would make them attempt to build all of chemistry up to TL 4. Probably an amazing (I assume a scientific fields counts as amazing) invention roll each time followed by more rolls to work out the bugs.

*Has not studied the history of chemistry probably off by several hundred years.

[Langy]

The question seems to be about the effects of high intellectual technology in a low TL area (not about mnemonics in particular at all). Rather than asking 'how did a person invent this' (which could have many reasons, including 'a guy came from the future with the knowledge of it'), I'll address the actual question posed.

What would be the TL assignment of various (Intellectual Technologies)?
Look at when they were originally devised. However, I'll note that many of these 'technologies' do not at all rely upon all the rest of the stuff that exists at that TL, or even of things that exist prior to that TL. Many of them, such as the scientific method, are simply ways of thinking that could easily be invented at any TL - and since these are purely intellectual technologies, they wouldn't need a high TL infrastructure to support them.

For example, if I went back in time to a TL2 civilization (and could somehow communicate with the people there), I could easily bring to them knowledge of the scientific method, decimal numbers, statistics, calculus, logarithms, the basics of the slide rule, etc. Proving these things might be a bit more difficult, but I could certainly apply them. None of these things require significant existing infrastructure to utilize effectively, though some would certainly require tables of look-up values that I'd need to recalculate by hand (which would be a bore, but not too impossible).

What would be the effect of using more advance (Intellectual Technologies) in lower TLs?
You could certainly make the case for an increase in TL advancement speed, especially after introducing the scientific method or decimal numbers or something like that. If they're widely distributed, things like the concept of logarithms could greatly reduce the workload for a number of scholarly types. I'm not sure how else the world would really change. Depends upon how popular the intellectual technologies in question are, I suppose.

As a GM would you limit the use of advanced (Intellectual Technologies) in your Lower Tech Games?
If the technology in question hasn't been invented yet in the setting the character comes from, yes.

What would sufficiently High TL(TL9, TL10, and TL11) (Intellectual Technologies) look like?
Absolutely no idea. If we knew, then they wouldn't be High TL. Intellectual technologies is one area where just knowing what it looks like is basically the same thing as inventing it.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Could you give an example of someone trying to use advanced mnemonics in a low-tech game? I would handle "I am going to invent an ars memoriae" just like "I am going to invent gunpowder" (lots of hard rolls against boring intellectual skills, with entertaining consequences on a failure, difficult trips to find books and materials and interested people, and lots of in-game obstacles).

Whats to stop a player from using it.
Ex. using advanced military applications and doctrine in low tech settings through magic.

I'll take langly's definition of Intellectual Technologies, since it . An example of intellectual technologies are:

Business Science: Project Management and Team Building process.
Propaganda and Marketing techniques.
Economics (from micro to macro economics)
Applied Game theory (used in designing laws or rules)

ex.
PC is a general commanding a vast army in TL1 or TL3, the player or the PC from another time, begins systemically training his army and staff using TL8 management science. He breaks down tasks in time-in-motion studies and uses six-sigma techniques to optimize all motions (and because he knows all these techniques he can easily communicate and rationalize their usefulness to the other leaders). If there is a strong religious focus, then the PC uses several marketing and propoganda techniques to get Divine legitimacy. Another PC employs a skilled spy and, uses focus group discussion to air-out sources of discontent and measure morale.

The other generals of the TL1 or TL3 don't have their tasks and duties in writing. there is no writing about doctrine, nor is there an organized reference. Other army and generals, don't use the scientific method to measure aspects of their organization for weaknesses.

ex #2.
Double Entry method of accounting and specialized division of labor (TL5-8, maturity of concept). If you bring that method of organizing in its TL5 form to a TL1-3 setting you increase productivity.

ex #3
TL8 Social Engineering, in the hands of a fairly charismatic and healthy individual in TL1 to TL4.

Advanced Intellectual Technology. Advanced Intellectual methods have been used to sort out many confusing and ambiguous areas. Ideas mature and they get refined, allowing for people with different intelligence strengths to use what was once too complex for the variety of intelligence out there and only geniuses can figure out.

Since Sci-fi Tech assumes some tech "worked" or they "worked out the bugs"

ex. advance teaching methods - khan academy teaching structure matured, the problems that generations had with math is now a thing of the past. being the generation who didn't have that unlimited math testing and study resource, I can appreciate that as a big tech leap.

ex1. If the Ekman's FACS was made into a Computer Based Training course (worth in Real world hours 120hours) (more rigorous detailed, and complete than his macro-media version in the early 2000). How would affect the Body Language, Lie-Detection or Psychology skill?

ex2. the memory room having a more scientific and accessible computer based training course. Instead of using spatial memory, there are other versions that allow other minds to draw from other intelligence. So more people can have a memory room like ability, regardless of their weaker spatial Int strength and depending on their other Int.

[Polydamas]

Thanks for the long explanation, nik. Now I understand what you mean a bit better.

Originally Posted by nik1979

Whats to stop a player from using it.
Ex. using advanced military applications and doctrine in low tech settings through magic.

What do you mean? A player can't just say “my character is using these techniques” and expect to be successful immediately. At best he might be able to use them by default (if they are known to his culture) or start using the Invention rules to invent them. This is good news for the GM; the player has picked a goal that they care about, and the GM has an excuse to create all sorts of entertaining obstacles. If they want their character to to teach themselves Eidetic Memory, for example, but come from a culture without such training, I can give them challenges like:

- Deciding what to do with the people who appear and offer to teach them. Many of these teachers will be quacks.
- Rumours of teachers somewhere else. Some won't exist, some will not actually know Eidetic Memory or know it but not be able to teach it, and some will have unusual requirements for teaching.
- Rumours of helpful books which need to be tracked down
- Other characters notice that the hero is spending a lot of time alone muttering to himself or staring intently at pictures. The hero acquires a negative reputation (Eccentric loner/heretic/madman).
- A series of difficult IQ or Will rolls. Failure can result in anything from no progress, to headaches, to a mental breakdown, to inventing something which the character thinks works but is actually flawed or useless.

Anything which involves changing how a large organization does things means that I can add political and management obstacles! How do the players deal with the king's favourite deciding that he hates their ideas, or realizing that someone in their new management school is embezzling? How does the general character split his time between running the army, running a school to train managers and officers, and fending off his political enemies?

Many things would simply be ways to get a skill bonus. For example, a character who wishes to create a permanent embassy in another city must first get permission to do that (using Politics, Public Speaking, Propaganda, etc.) then spend some money to get a bonus to intelligence gathering and propaganda in that city at the cost of some money. Management skills like Administration would be important to make sure that they appoint the right people and that they keep doing their job. If it worked, they would have a bonus to skill over their enemies who don't have permanent agents in place.

[hal]

I suggest that people look into Gustavus Adolphus for examples of what happens when someone applies modern principles in an era where the old way of waging war was still considered to be a good method.