Building Dark Ages Warriors

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Beoferret

Armor: Clearly mail was the primary metal armor for warriors at the time, but was there also any use of scale in Britain? Didn't the Merovingians use some scale armor for their guys?

Um, yes. Already noted above.

"Mail, scale, and layered cloth seem more common but even these were reserved for the wealthy."

And as a total nit-picky point, Dan, why would oxen have tougher hides than cattle, when oxen are simply any cattle (boy or girl, so to speak) that are used for draft power? As a result of extensive working (vs. pampered dairy moo-moos)?

"The only domesticated leather suitable for armour would have to come from oxen and some parts of the horse. Neither was cheap in that part of Europe."

My point is that leather armour was not a "cheap" option in that part of the world. If you are a chieftain or his retinue then you might have armour. The rest would have a spear and shield and that is all. Metal armour probably didn't cost that much more than leather armour.

And Dan, by any chance are you putting in entries for dark ages/early medieval period warriors in your Low Tech: armor loadouts supplement? (Though perhaps discussion of this deserves a different thread.)

Currently there are entries for Viking Raider, Anglo-Saxon Huscarl, and Norman Milite. Not sure whether all of these will make the final draft.

[DanHoward]

Around 800 AD the cost of the following items were codified.

helmet - 6 solidi
mail shirt- 12 solidi
mail leggings - 6 solidi
sword - 3 solidi
lance and shield - 2 solidi
warhorse - 12 solidi

So a sword cost half as much as a helmet and a helmet cost half as much as a mail shirt.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Yorunkun

Characters will be built on 100 points, with up to 50 points in disads;... At least one third of all points will have to be reserved for non-combat skills.

It's going to hard (if not impossible) to make dedicated professional warriors with those conditions, IME.

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

1.) You could easily add a variety of superstitions -- any dark wood is full of mankilling demons; the ocean is a living thing and needs the occasional sacrifice. Note that the "fair lady" of "London Bridge" was a reference to the early custom of embedding a human sacrifice into at least one pier of any newly-constructed bridge.

2.) Depending on when in the Dark Ages you set your campaign religious views could be an issue. Lots of Saxons and Scandinavians would be pagan and even lots of the officially-Christian types in Western Europe have more trust in their forefathers' now-hidden beliefs than in the White God. [IIRC Charlemagne, the first Western Holy Roman Emperor, crowned by the Pope, had four wives. At once. No one apparently wanted to call his attention to the official rules . . . ]

Even within Christianity there's lots of deviation. You had the Celtic and North Saxon (IIRC -- I forget the official name) churches and Rome was busy sending papal legates out to combat error and heresy. This doesn't even mention the East-West split that existed hundreds of years before the official division in 1054.

3.) Fighting men were one of the few groups that could get around. The Byzantine Varangian Guard apparently started in the 900s but I'm sure that there were predecessors and you certainly could make some up -- the records from that time aren't exactly complete. Normans in the Mediterranean Basin began as mercenaries for Byzantium but wound up seeing more profit as independent entrepreneurs, fighting their own former employers. (That's corporate division with a vengeance.)

4.) Comments on weapons & armor -- I expect Dan Howard is quite right that there was little if no use of leather in the records in Western Europe at that time. I would argue, however, that given the diversity of makers & users perhaps some oddball area or even individual in Western Europe might have been more prone to making armor out of cowhide -- not like the latter is wholly scarce & was certainly used for other things (harness, thongs to tie wagons together, et. al.)

The Saxon/Scandinavian scrimasax was pretty well known -- a very cheap knife or sword & various GURPS sources have covered it. I'd guess that other areas in Western Europe might have created similar weapons that were not well recorded. You might well have a gaming session around getting a fancy pattern-welded sword -- that in fact turns out to be a forgery (a cheap blade sold as a limousine model. Historians have found references to such). Perhaps a wealthy warrior has discovered his hot-rod sword was bogus and wants a group of guys to track down the seller and get back the purchase price -- if not in gold than in odd bodily parts.

In Western Europe, it would be pretty standard for warriors to have not only hand-to-hand weapons skills but weapon throwing -- Spear & Axe. As armor improved & got more common after c. 1050 these skills faded, as the chance of a serious injury to the opponent would get pretty small. Characters from a herdsman background might well have Sling skill -- young boys would often tend flocks and you have to discourage wolves or feral dogs. Slings & stones are a lot cheaper than bows and arrows.

If you want to get the feel for the Code of Honor of a West-Europe Dark Age warrior band I'd suggest reading the "Battle of Maldon." While impressed levies wouldn't have it not just the high-tone nobility adhered to such; any professional warrior should have such a Code, and if not, then either a Stigma or a Secret. Turning coward on the battlefield could well get you killed by your own side, if any survived.

5.) Non-combat skills -- various livelihood skills would be common in those who were not born to a warrior family -- agronomy (thinking 3rd edition), animal handling, perhaps craft skills at low-level for farmers & higher levels for those with an artisan background. Singing, gambling, boat handling (lots of West Europe has lakes/rivers, even for those far from the coast), running & jumping & wrestling were, IIRC, common sports of the young. Fewer would have Riding. I'm not sure how the Boxing would be common -- unless you count it as some relic of Greco-Roman wrestling.

I think that while professional singing/recitation would be the province of skalds or bards there might be room for some low level of amateur performance. I have an image of some rain-soaked unfortunates slogging down a soggy road from Nowhere to Who Cares and the leader says, "Jorich, you've got a decent voice. Give us a tune."

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

4.) Comments on weapons & armor -- I expect Dan Howard is quite right that there was little if no use of leather in the records in Western Europe at that time. I would argue, however, that given the diversity of makers & users perhaps some oddball area or even individual in Western Europe might have been more prone to making armor out of cowhide -- not like the latter is wholly scarce & was

Domesticated cattle was smaller and had thinner hides than today. The only domesticated leather suitable for armour would have to come from from oxen and some parts of the horse. Neither was cheap in that part of Europe. The further east you go the more common and less expensive leather is. There is a passage in Tacitus saying that some German tribes couldn't pay their tribute in the normal manner and had to give the hides of "wild beasts for military use". This seems to suggest that skins from their domesticated animals were unsuitable for military use. They did have leather armour, but it was rare and only worn by the wealthy. Mail, scale, and layered cloth seem more common but even these were reserved for the wealthy.

Cuchulain is said to be wearing 27 cneslenti. Old works translate this as "hide tunics" but it is more likely describing a garment made of 27 layers of linen. The word "leinte" is a likely derivative of "linen". IIRC his chariot driver had leather armour.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Cuchulain is said to be wearing 27 cneslenti. Old works translate this as "hide tunics"

Is there any chance that those are multiple layers of softer, thinner leather from local cattle or even sheep?

[Anders]

Fantasy has a professional warrior for 75 points. Martial Arts has one for 100 points. It's not easy but it's doable.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Is there any chance that those are multiple layers of softer, thinner leather from local cattle or even sheep?

No. The word is derived from a root that means "linen", not a term for "leather" or "skin".

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's going to hard (if not impossible) to make dedicated professional warriors with those conditions, IME.

Depends on the meaning of "one third." Presumably characters are not expected to spend 50 points on non-combat skills. So I'd assume that means 1/3 of points spent on skills go to non-combat abilities.

So go with:

ST 12, DX 12, HT 12 - 80 points

Say, 25 points in Characteristics and Advantages - maybe Per 11, Fit and Combat Reflexes.

That leaves 45 points for skills - 30 combat, 15 non combat. 12 points will get you a primary weapon and shield at 14 leaving 18 points to round out combat abilities. Another 15 points allows a lot for Scrounging, Survival, Climbing, Swimming, Fast Talk, etc.

That leaves a fairly elite veteran - a bit one dimensional in expertise but that's to be expected. Rules suggest 50-75 for ordinary professional fighter types. This isn't that far above it. Figure an ordinary pro fighter will be around 11 in Attributes and 12 in combat skills while bandits and levies will be lower. Remember in a fairly realistic Dark Ages campaign a lot of people will have a little combat skill but few will be dedicated professional warriors.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Depends on the meaning of "one third." Presumably characters are not expected to spend 50 points on non-combat skills.

That's exactly how the OP reads, "one third of all points". If I were him I'd 1) lobby for 150 point characters and 2) lobby to lift that restriction.