Munchkin and Gender

[stopyelling]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

We joke about this one, but Munchkin is a family game (ages 10 and up, remember) and we don't want to do anything to harm that image. We already dance right up to the line with some of the art and humor.

I was about to make a thread about the sexist artwork in the Munchkin. I mean really. It offends a lot of my party but they get use to it.

Actually I just got classic Munchkin and was introduced to the whole choosing ones sex and we sort of sneered at that as well.

We got pretty strong opinons about gender roles- but at the same time we are pretty understanding. I mean, it's a losing battle to get annoyed when sites don't offer options for transgendered or gender-queer etc.


The huge breasted sexually glorified women in these game however- not cool.

edit= You should probably make this into a new thread

[snarky]

Originally Posted by stopyelling

The huge breasted sexually glorified women in these game however- not cool.

To be fair, the genre from which Munchkin originates is where this comes from - take a look at any fantasy artwork that adorns the pages of 2nd Edition D&D books, and it's very quickly obvious that there's a gender bias.

[stopyelling]

Ya we all get that. We just sort of have to 'deal'.

[Eben]

Originally Posted by stopyelling

I was about to make a thread about the sexist artwork in the Munchkin. I mean really. It offends a lot of my party but they get use to it.

Actually I just got classic Munchkin and was introduced to the whole choosing ones sex and we sort of sneered at that as well.

We got pretty strong opinons about gender roles- but at the same time we are pretty understanding. I mean, it's a losing battle to get annoyed when sites don't offer options for transgendered or gender-queer etc.


The huge breasted sexually glorified women in these game however- not cool.

edit= You should probably make this into a new thread

Why offer options for transgender or gender-queer, etc? Regardless of preference, you are either male or female. Even the people physically born with issues that may require surgery. Pick one and stick with it. Its a game not a political, socio-whatever statement.

So you aren't bothered by the overly-muscled guys? Or the stereotypes about thieves, wizards, monsters, etc?

[Andrew Hackard]

As suggested, I've split this into a separate thread.

I urge everyone to keep your language temperate and to be respectful of other posters. The moderators WILL hand out infraction points for trolling or flamage, and we WILL NOT hesistate to ban people who can't play nicely.

Speaking only in terms of the game itself: You are required to pick a sex in those sets that have sex-based effects (Zombies and Axe Cop do not, at least at present). While the standard rule is "You start off as your sex," we have gone on record as declining to challenge people on this declaration. An unfamiliar person who appears male but declares female should be considered female for game purposes and it is rude to subject her (or him) to an inquisition on the matter. What you cannot do is arbitrarily change mid-game.

[stopyelling]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

As suggested, I've split this into a separate thread.

I urge everyone to keep your language temperate and to be respectful of other posters. The moderators WILL hand out infraction points for trolling or flamage, and we WILL NOT hesistate to ban people who can't play nicely.

Speaking only in terms of the game itself: You are required to pick a sex in those sets that have sex-based effects (Zombies and Axe Cop do not, at least at present). While the standard rule is "You start off as your sex," we have gone on record as declining to challenge people on this declaration. An unfamiliar person who appears male but declares female should be considered female for game purposes and it is rude to subject her (or him) to an inquisition on the matter. What you cannot do is arbitrarily change mid-game.

That line is the only line we really had a problem with after long debate.

We get that the game no accommodating to gender queer is not exactly rude or insensitive. It's a just game a gimmick. Like Alliance/Horde. (Though WOW not offering such things ..maybe a different issue...) Really we get that in the digital world, you hit well over 95% of the market by not including close captions, brail, gener conscious etc. It makes sense. It would just be nice.


The art style however.. not so much. Again, it's not exactly BAD- but it's just in a 'different' taste. Not my groups taste sure. It just makes us all roll our eyes. I hope I don't seem insensitive but like, the women in these drawings are clearly over the top sexualized. A joke I assume on other fantasy art. But every women? In every Munchkin game (maybe, don't own them all)? In every instance?

If his art wasn't so cartoonish, maybe I could say 'well at least it's appealing' but since it's so characterized, it's just sexist. This goes back to sexists as per the style of the genre. Ya. But that should loop back to what I said above- every girl? every game (so far)?

Really, we don't got a HUGE issue with it. But it just makes the women in my group (my group are all women and gender queer except me) sort of roll their eyes.

Don't mean to be rude .. I think I have a valid observation.. I really apologize if I crossed any lines.

[stopyelling]

Originally Posted by Eben

So you aren't bothered by the overly-muscled guys? Or the stereotypes about thieves, wizards, monsters, etc?

Almost all the characters fit the artists style. That big nose, dotted eyes, sort of child like body. (Kind of roundish sometime) See it all the time in Dork Tower.

My real question is why not female 'Dorks' for some of the female characters. So far all women I've found are blatantly over sexualized. (Though very likely have missed some and have not checked all but at least most)

(Like I just recalled the Female Atomic Zombie! Oh ya!)

In response to other stereotypes or jabs at them, well ya. That's okay. Wariors are all beefy sure. Warior = Strong = Beefy. I dig it.

Have you seem the Amazon card? The Leather Armor card? And others I cant think off hand?

Well maybe not the leather armor card. i get it. Leather Armor. BDSM. Ya I see it.

I really should do research before talking.

Originally Posted by Eben

Why offer options for transgender or gender-queer, etc? Regardless of preference, you are either male or female. Even the people physically born with issues that may require surgery. Pick one and stick with it. Its a game not a political, socio-whatever statement.

We got no issue with picking a sex without being it. I am a man and I always play female.

It's just how the game asks to pick the sex you are. That's all REALLY. Everything else just you know- hit close to home.

[Eben]

I think you may be seeing a problem that isn't there.

That rule is there to prevent people from arguing what gender thery are later on in the game when its applicable. Which doesn't happen all that often. Monster effects, weapons, etc. The game doesn't need extra genders. Either you are male or you are female. If you wanted to house-rule that the cards that say "only opposite gender may help" is now any gender may, thats up to you.


"My real question is why not female 'Dorks' for some of the female characters. So far all women I've found are blatantly over sexualized. (Though very likely have missed some and have not checked all but at least most)"

Makes it easier to tell what gender they are supposed to be for one. Not a lot of room on the card.

[thedag]

Originally Posted by stopyelling

Have you seem the Amazon card? The Leather Armor card? And others I cant think off hand?

When I get the leather armor card my wife often comments that I should be made to dress in the outfit. I'm not sure that she is joking! I am sure our son will need a lot of counselling after these comments during the game. one game every single item I had and class card had female picture. Guess it is the group you play with. We try not to take it seriously.

[Mister Ed]

Wow, this was an education. I looked up "gender-queer", because I had never, ever heard the term, and couldn't figure out what the issue was. I thought that, even among the transgender, people would pick a gender and stick with it, and so would simply, for game purposes, use whatever gender they identified as. I was totally unaware (though I guess I shouldn't be surprised) that some people somehow believe that gender is a fluid characteristic, and that people can be either, both, or neither, and go back and forth as they choose.

Pretty sure that belief doesn't fit with the actual definition of the word "gender" as found in the dictionary, not without stretching it to almost unrecognizeability,though, so I'm not sure one has much basis for criticizing others for not making special efforts to accomodate such a new definition in something as simple as game rules designed to define effects based on the binary gender setup standard to said game. For game purposes, having such a fluid vision of gender would constitute cheating, since it would allow one to decide on their own whether gender-based cards and card effects were applicable to them on a case-by-case basis.