[IW] Even darker Reich?

[Xipe_Totec]

So, I was thinking about a game my friend is runing (Adventure-type semi-occult game with PCs being some kind of nazi party members, think reversed Indiana Jones), and in a discussion about a one-off crossover of his game and Infinite Worlds (Mossad agents trying to sabotage a newly discovered Reich paralel Auschwitz) I got to thinking about how WW2 gets treated in RPGs (and alt-hist fiction). Most of it is focused on fighting, with almost no mention of the underlying holocaust (not even this friend's game). Understably so, but it always struck me as off (my one WW2 game was focused on a resistance force's attempt to rescue concentration camp prisoners). I guess I simply see it as a pivotal part of the whole historical event.

Anyways, a (very dark) idea formed about a dark occult paralel Earth, where nazis used the holocaust as a way to generate energy for a spell. Back of the envelope calculation: 6 milion victims * (10 FP + 10 HP) = 120 milion points for a spell. The question suddenly becomes, what kind of morbidly dark spell could the nazis cast using all that power? Even reducing per victim points to just one, it's still 6 milion points. We've never recieved a point cost for Banestorm or Trinity event spells, but I'd hazard that they'd be somewhere in the vicinity at least.

There are some related questions also. Holocaust was spread through a longer time period - could that still be considered one ritual, or would all those points be distributed to smaller rituals and spells? Considering Earth is a no-mana (or at most low-mana) area, what percentage of those points would go to just make up for that? Could the whole thing just be written off as a series of Ressurections, to combat the many assassination attempts at Hitler, or could it be used to power up some kind of massive doomsday weapon? Perhaps a magical equivalent of an a-bomb, directed at the US and triggering paralel equivalent of a (Technomancer's) Trinity event?

[DonMoody]

Four words:

"Secret Nazi Moon Base"

DonMoody

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Xipe_Totec

Anyways, a (very dark) idea formed about a dark occult paralel Earth, where nazis used the holocaust as a way to generate energy for a spell. Back of the envelope calculation: 6 milion victims * (10 FP + 10 HP) = 120 milion points for a spell. The question suddenly becomes, what kind of morbidly dark spell could the nazis cast using all that power? Even reducing per victim points to just one, it's still 6 milion points. We've never recieved a point cost for Banestorm or Trinity event spells, but I'd hazard that they'd be somewhere in the vicinity at least.

Canonically, a Trinity event releases energy rather than consuming it. And if you ask what the Nazis are doing with 6 million victims worth of energy, that raises the question of what Stalin is doing with 8 million.

[SonofJohn]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Canonically, a Trinity event releases energy rather than consuming it. And if you ask what the Nazis are doing with 6 million victims worth of energy, that raises the question of what Stalin is doing with 8 million.

Mindcontroll?

[Celjabba]

I* would go with a portal/summoning, to allow access to/for some dark entity.
And focusing on 'True Believer' and 'Mystics'(gypsies) as sacrifice would make some dark sense in such a setting.

*: while I have read similar stories, I would not enact them in play. There are some topics I feel should be left alone in games. But perhaps that's just me.

Another possibility is an empowering/ascension ritual.
http://johnl.org/2009/08/27/stalin-vs-hitler/

celjabba

[Michele]

I recommend the sidebar on p. 57 of GURPS WWII: Weird War II for reasons why this isn't such a good idea. You'll find in-game mechanics that make this impossible, and a common-sense explanation of why most players would find it insensitive. YMMV, of course, but I'd suggest that you consider all of that.

[Kymage]

IIRC the short story "Captain America meets Thor" actually had this idea as a key part of the back story. The Nazis used the spell to bring the Norse Gods to life and point them at the Allies.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Michele

I recommend the sidebar on p. 57 of GURPS WWII: Weird War II for reasons why this isn't such a good idea. You'll find in-game mechanics that make this impossible, and a common-sense explanation of why most players would find it insensitive. YMMV, of course, but I'd suggest that you consider all of that.

The short version is "Real and normal humans, not cartoon supervillains, perpetrated the Holocaust, and they did it for real, petty, poorly-rationalized, and very human reasons. Providing supernatural reasons, effective and logical reasons, diverts attention from the lessons of the event: regular old humans with no coherent reason can periodically do absolutely horrific things, and they get away with it when other regular old humans don't intervene."

It also starts drifting things uncomfortably in the direction of justifying what was done, although having the ritual do something as insane as the Holocaust itself would at least keep things on message.


The concept can be played with in a way that doesn't divert from the central horror - for example "a group of evil wizards exploits the necromantic energy generated by the death camps". This also ends up making the rules problems less of an issue, as a secret group isn't co-ordinating a mass sacrifice, they're exploiting the new necromantic aspect that the Nazis generated, or they're harvesting necromanticly-empowered dross, or the like. It's a much smaller event but one that can be sustained in the background throughout the entire war, and sort of "one more atrocity" in a time of atrocities.

And the same sort of thing might be going on "Underground" in Stalinist Russia, or the evil wizards in Russia could be too busy dodging Communist crackdowns on religions and cults to exploit the situation.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Michele

I recommend the sidebar on p. 57 of GURPS WWII: Weird War II for reasons why this isn't such a good idea. You'll find in-game mechanics that make this impossible, and a common-sense explanation of why most players would find it insensitive.

To be sure, that's an argument against making only some groups useful for magical sacrifice. If human sacrifice in general is effective, then it's even handed and of course anti-Semites are going to sacrifice Jews first, but you can also have Poles eating Teutonic hearts for strength and Egyptians ritually drowning Italian fascists in the Suez.

[sn0wball]

Originally Posted by Xipe_Totec

There are some related questions also. Holocaust was spread through a longer time period - could that still be considered one ritual, or would all those points be distributed to smaller rituals and spells? Considering Earth is a no-mana (or at most low-mana) area, what percentage of those points would go to just make up for that? Could the whole thing just be written off as a series of Ressurections, to combat the many assassination attempts at Hitler, or could it be used to power up some kind of massive doomsday weapon? Perhaps a magical equivalent of an a-bomb, directed at the US and triggering paralel equivalent of a (Technomancer's) Trinity event?

A Banestorm to sweep all Communists to Yrth. As these always do, it will certainly fail and instead litter Germany with Orcs.

Besides - won´t the Allies try everything to stop the ritual from being completed ? This shouldn´t be that difficult. If I recall my Magic correctly, killing one of the casters should suffice. Alternatively bombing the camps or a premature invasion of Western Europe would be possible.

I´ve just read about an alternative history in which the German A-bomb program was much more successfull and the allies did everything they could to disturb it. The essay on this Hitler Options should prove inspirational - just as the rest of the book.

Such a scenario would also be a goldmine for adventure hooks ... going undercover into occupied territory to stop the acquisition of magical raw material, parachute into the Reich to assassinate spell casters, commando raids to free some death camps, bombing runs to destroy railroads to others. This would be a great opportunity to remove the Allies stain of disbelieving or underachieving in regard to the holocaust.

For extra fun, and for those who know of The Representative , you could throw in the Vatican into the fray to supllies to Allied commandos with exorcists. Maybe the pope would have reacted to the holocaust if it constituted witchcraft.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Canonically, a Trinity event releases energy rather than consuming it. And if you ask what the Nazis are doing with 6 million victims worth of energy, that raises the question of what Stalin is doing with 8 million.

Not much. You receive only energy from people killed under ritual circumstances. Starving or working people to death, or just shooting them will hardly count.