Abilities that Cost ST, HT, IQ, DX, Will, etc.

[JCurwen3]

Is there a way to do this? Basically you'd spend attribute points, which would mean you'd be inflicting attribute penalties on yourself, in order to use your ability?

The closest thing I found was Nuisance Effect: Backlash limitation (p. P104), wherein you can opt for an Attribute Penalty as the noxious effect, and the Temporary Disadvantage limitation (p. B115) which would be necessary for Will or Per losses.

But neither are really quite right. Temporary Disadvantage lasts only as long as your ability is active, and doesn't end a moment sooner or later. Backlash lets you roll against HT each minute to recover, and then you'd recover all your Attribute Penalty at once - no gradual recovery as there would be for spent FP or HP.

Coming out of left field, I think the only attack that can cause "damage" to your attributes is Leech with Steal (Other Score) - the attribute losses return at the same rate at which you recover FP. I don't know if there are other precedents in the system for temporary attribute loss and gradual recovery, off the top of my head. But I like the recovery rate from being attacked like this as being the base recovery rate for "spent" attribute points as well.

So, how to do this? Is there a RAW way, or a decent suggestion for a house rule (maybe with some legitimacy lent to it by a semi-official ruling)?

Also, on a related note, is there a way to make a recovery from an Affliction gradual (where applicable)? Say you're hit with an Affliction of Attribute Penalty: ST-4, is it possible to make it come back +1 at a time each <insert duration here>? Or, for that matter, if Afflicted with a levelled Advantage or Disadvantage, to have the levels shave off one by one over time?

[Anthony]

Logical extrapolation is that, if it recovers at the same rate as fatigue, every 3 character points of ability loss should be the same as a fatigue cost of 1, so costing 3 ST is equivalent to costing 10 fatigue, for -50% (8 fatigue if it doesn't reduce HP). Note that the general ability to spend attribute points as fatigue can be attained by taking an energy reserve as an alternate ability on the attribute you can burn (and the GM should rule that for an energy reserve as an AA, the base power does not recover until the energy reserve recovers), but that would allow you to spend normal fatigue or anything else (actually, this is a fairly cool concept for mages).

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Logical extrapolation is that, if it recovers at the same rate as fatigue, every 3 points of ability loss should be the same as a fatigue cost of 1, so costing 3 ST is equivalent to costing 10 fatigue, for -50% (8 fatigue if it doesn't reduce HP).

Where did you get those figures, specifically the "every 3 points of ability loss" bit? If from Leech, remember that the base Leech ability gives the Leech 1 HP per every 3 HP stolen - it's just the basic exchange rate of the ability (ignoring Steal Youth), one that can be improved with its Accelerated Healing enhancement (if added to Leech with Steal ST, for example, that would heal 1 HP or FP per stolen 1 ST).

And having said all that, I wonder about how to build an ability that ages the owner when he uses it (Costs Aging), either permanently (just add +150% or +300% enhancement on the modifier) or temporarily (at a low low cost).

Originally Posted by Anthony

Note that the general ability to spend attribute points as fatigue can be attained by taking an energy reserve as an alternate ability on the attribute you can burn (and the GM should rule that for an energy reserve as an AA, the base power does not recover until the energy reserve recovers), but that would allow you to spend normal fatigue or anything else (actually, this is a fairly cool concept for mages).

Huh, that's a pretty cool way of doing that! And also, yes, quite the cool concept for mages (and people that need to fuel their abilities with energy in general).

[Langy]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Where did you get those figures, specifically the "every 3 points of ability loss" bit? If from Leech, remember that the base Leech ability gives the Leech 1 HP per every 3 HP stolen - it's just the basic exchange rate of the ability (ignoring Steal Youth), one that can be improved with its Accelerated Healing enhancement (if added to Leech with Steal ST, for example, that would heal 1 HP or FP per stolen 1 ST).

It's not from Leech. It's because 1 FP costs 3 CP.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Langy

It's not from Leech. It's because 1 FP costs 3 CP.

Oh, yeah, duh! My bad. So then 1 FP costs 3 CP, and 1 ST or HT costs 10 CP, and 1 DX or IQ costs 20 CP, and Will or Per 5 CP.

So I guess if we allow for recovery of those attributes at normal FP recovery, then we could scale up the value of Costs Fatigue accordingly for each.

The scaling factor would be 10/3 = x3.333... for ST and HT, giving Costs ST and Costs HT modifiers a value of -16%/level.

The scaling factor would be 20/3 = x6.666... for DX and IQ, giving Costs DX and Costs IQ modifiers a value of -33%/level.

The scaling factor would be 5/3 = x1.666... for Will and Per, giving Costs Will and Costs Per modifiers a value of -8%/level.

I'm not sure about the rounding rules for modifiers. I rounded "up" (rounding a negative up gives a smaller negative), but if that's not right then just add -1% to each.

Is that what the suggestion is, and would that work and sound right?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Is that what the suggestion is, and would that work and sound right?

Yeah, pretty much (note: recovery rate for lost attribute points is thus 0.3 character points per minute), though I might go with something simpler (say, 15% per point of ST or HT, 30% per point of DX or IQ, every hour you recover either 1 DX, 1 IQ, 2 ST, or 2 HT). Note that this is pure house rules, and is, weirdly, a higher limitation value than temporary disadvantage, but that's probably because it's cumulative.

Oh, and if it recovers like HP loss instead of like fatigue loss, it's probably 5% per 2 character points (you can basically spend HP as FP).

[Langy]

I think the price of Costs HP might actually be a better example for Costs (Attribute), since the effects of lowered attributes are significantly higher than lowered FP, up to and including death if one of your attributes are reduced to 0. This would mean -5% per CP - -25% for Costs 1 Will or Per, -50% for Costs 1 HT or ST, and -100% for costs 1 IQ or DX.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Where did you get those figures, specifically the "every 3 points of ability loss" bit?

Btw, since it wasn't clear, 3 character points, not 3 attribute points. And it comes from the cost of fatigue, as langy notes.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Logical extrapolation is that, if it recovers at the same rate as fatigue, every 3 character points of ability loss should be the same as a fatigue cost of 1, so costing 3 ST is equivalent to costing 10 fatigue, for -50% (8 fatigue if it doesn't reduce HP). Note that the general ability to spend attribute points as fatigue can be attained by taking an energy reserve as an alternate ability on the attribute you can burn (and the GM should rule that for an energy reserve as an AA, the base power does not recover until the energy reserve recovers), but that would allow you to spend normal fatigue or anything else (actually, this is a fairly cool concept for mages).

There's a possible problem with this, I think. Are spent character points really fully fungible?

Example:

A character has HT12, FP12, ST12 and HP12.

If she spends 9 FP she incurs specific penalties. This is would correspond to 27 CP.

If you translate the 27 CP to an ST! penalty you get 27/8 for a four point penalty to ST = ST8.

I'm not sure that the consequences of being at ST8 down from ST12 are as significant as the consequences of being at FP3 down from FP12.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

I'm not sure that the consequences of being at ST8 down from ST12 are as significant as the consequences of being at FP3 down from FP12.

Reduced damage, reduced Basic Lift (you might start losing FP depending on your new encumbrance level based on what you're carrying), etc.

IMHO, I think they're as significant, if not moreso. So in fact I think in this case they're "fungible" (nice word) and we can make the extrapolation, if and only if we assume they recover at the same rate as FP recovery, as they do in Leech, otherwise we need to factor in the different recovery rate into the final value.