Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, I suspect you don't need Extended Duration; when the Affliction ends the character will return to aging normally, but any aging done while under the effects of the affliction should be permanent.

Indeed, I think you're right, otherwise what you're really doing is giving them Unaging and then permanently being able to control their age upwards or downwards (unless you opt to bestow it to a friend beneficially, in which case they'll control their own age).

So a rewrite, with more useful levelling:

Age Person:
Affliction 1 (Advantage, Unaging, Age Control, +180% + 20%/level; Contact Agent, -30%; Malediction, +100%) [35 + 2/level]
Notes: When you make direct physical contact with a person, you can make them grow younger or older at a rate equal to 10 to the power of your level times their normal aging rate.

Age Rate Per Minute By Level
Level 1 (35 pts): 10 min / min
Level 2 (37 pts): 1 hr 40 min (100 min) / min
Level 3 (39 pts): 16 hr 40 min (1K min) / min
Level 4 (41 pts): 6 days 22 hr 40 min (10K min) / min
Level 5 (43 pts): 2 mo 9 days 10 hr 40 min (100K min) / min
Level 6 (45 pts): About 1.9 years (1 million min) / min
Level 7 (47 pts): About 19 years (10 million min) / min
...

You must win a Quick Contest of your Will vs. the target's HT, or an unopposed Will roll if the target can't or chooses not to resist. Any aging or rejuvenation is permanent on the target. 35 points + 2 points/level

I put everything relative to minutes because that's the default duration of Affliction. I think it looks balanced, and relatively RAW. After level 6 it becomes fairly easy to calculate years aged or rejuvenated, just multiply by 10. Taking a couple of attacks from someone with Age Person 7 would quickly get you into aging attribute loss HT checks land. Maybe to make it more true to how powers like this often work in fiction, add a follow-up effect like pain or stunning or another irritant which would up the base price a bit, but it's not necessary.

Thoughts? I like this power.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

If that's the case, then they'd be hunting you down even if killing you won't restore their youth. A which point, what is the benefit of the +450% vs +300% if they're all going to be hunting you down anyway?

I'm more inclined to follow the Extended Duration with Permanent reasoning, as I can fully grasp that one. But the "you have people hunting you down", I don't buy, as they'll hunt you down either way on the chance that it will work.

I'd go with the Extended Duration, Permanent reasoning too, for the same reason you do. The whole "they'll hunt you down" thing seems, respectfully, to be a desperate attempt at rationalization, one that makes assumptions both about human nature but more importantly makes assumptions about your specific campaign world - where this power might not be associated with any race, but only with individuals, some of which restore youth upon death, and others that don't, with no guarantees one way or the other, along with any number of other campaign-specific possibilities.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Also, if you want people hunting you down, then that should be represented by the Enemies disadvantages, not hidden into another trait.

Well said. Indeed, Leech (Steal Youth) is really an Enemies disadvantage mass-production factory - anyone you do this to and leave alive will come after you to try to murder you or have you killed, especially if they suspect that doing so will restore their youth, but often revenge will motivate them enough. So it's not just regular Enemies, but Enemies that aren't trying to impede you or give you a hard time or screw you over, but actually end your life. That's yet another reason it's overpriced, because it can't be used significantly without either murdering your victims (which brings its own set of legal and social problems) or creating Enemies that want you dead. Only if you use it to take maybe a few months at a time per person, always from different people, so nobody gets wise, will you avoid that. And then what you've really got is a way overpriced Unaging with a nuisance dependency.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I'm not taking issue with your argument that Steal Youth looks overpriced, but compare the above build with a base version of the enhanced Leech. The latter costs 100 points. It only works in one direction, and requires a victim to be any benefit at all... but it works five orders of magnitude faster and doesn't allow a resistance roll.

I'll grant you that not allowing a resistance roll is a big thing and we don't have that here. But that could be simulated by making it a high enough Affliction level, and maybe slap on Cosmic, No Rule of 16, +50%, an optional enhancement listed in Psionic Campaigns p. 26 that allows you to "always use your full (modified) skill" and you've got a virtually irresistible attack that just requires a Will roll on your part to succeed in addition to touching the person, not to mention with the penalty on the victim's HT roll they may suffer some spectacular failures and keep on aging for several minutes after you first made that attack to touch them.

As far as Leech (Steal Youth) being 5 orders of magnitude faster, working in seconds rather than minutes, that could be fixed with appropriate modifiers too (making my build more expensive).

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Indeed, I think you're right, otherwise what you're really doing is giving them Unaging and then permanently being able to control their age upwards or downwards (unless you opt to bestow it to a friend beneficially, in which case they'll control their own age).

So a rewrite, with more useful levelling:

Age Person:
Affliction 1 (Advantage, Unaging, Age Control, +180% + 20%/level; Contact Agent, -30%; Malediction, +100%) [35 + 2/level]
Notes: When you make direct physical contact with a person, you can make them grow younger or older at a rate equal to 10 to the power of your level times their normal aging rate.

Age Rate Per Minute By Level
Level 1 (35 pts): 10 min / min
Level 2 (37 pts): 1 hr 40 min (100 min) / min
Level 3 (39 pts): 16 hr 40 min (1K min) / min
Level 4 (41 pts): 6 days 22 hr 40 min (10K min) / min
Level 5 (43 pts): 2 mo 9 days 10 hr 40 min (100K min) / min
Level 6 (45 pts): About 1.9 years (1 million min) / min
Level 7 (47 pts): About 19 years (10 million min) / min
...

You must win a Quick Contest of your Will vs. the target's HT, or an unopposed Will roll if the target can't or chooses not to resist. Any aging or rejuvenation is permanent on the target. 35 points + 2 points/level

I put everything relative to minutes because that's the default duration of Affliction. I think it looks balanced, and relatively RAW. After level 6 it becomes fairly easy to calculate years aged or rejuvenated, just multiply by 10. Taking a couple of attacks from someone with Age Person 7 would quickly get you into aging attribute loss HT checks land. Maybe to make it more true to how powers like this often work in fiction, add a follow-up effect like pain or stunning or another irritant which would up the base price a bit, but it's not necessary.

Thoughts? I like this power.

The way transformation-type Afflictions work, the target does not get the ability to use at their discretion, but are changed as the attacker desires, according to how the base ability normally works. The victim of the an age control attack would be aged, or rejuvenated, presumably 10 seconds per attack. The effect is not permanent by default, but has the normal duration of any affliction, which needs to be increased with the Extended Duration mod if you want it to last longer.

A couple of other issues with the original write-up that occurred to me:
Affliction is not continuous by default, i.e., you don't get a free attack just by touching your target. I think you need Aura to get the effect you want.
I'm not sure that the effect should add on inherently, although it might, based on the way Steal Youth normally works. It would be kind of interesting if this build bypassed the normal need for Cumulative. That might be worth checking with Kromm to be certain of.

I suddenly remember another proposal for an age control affliction, and the model that made the most sense then was an AF attack with traits in the change form that simulate age.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The way transformation-type Afflictions work, the target does not get the ability to use at their discretion, but are changed as the attacker desires, according to how the base ability normally works. The victim of the an age control attack would be aged, or rejuvenated, presumably 10 seconds per attack.

I know - the above depends on the fact that the attacker controls the Age Control power (esp in the case of the aging attack). Default duration of Affliction is in minutes (depending on the margin of failure of the victim's HT roll, if they choose to resist the Malediction, otherwise margin of success of wielder's Will roll). So it would be at least 10 minutes of aging per successful attack.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The effect is not permanent by default, but has the normal duration of any affliction, which needs to be increased with the Extended Duration mod if you want it to last longer.

I don't know about that. The aging (or rejuvenation) is a side effect of the advantage on the character. I don't think you need Extended Duration here, unless you want to allow the attacker to be capable of controlling the age of his victims for longer or extend the duration of the benefits of the Unaging on the victim. To my mind, any aging or rejuvenation that happened while the advantage was being controlled by the attacker are permanent because they're just game effects of having had the affliction (they're things you can do with Unaging with Age Control). It's the same as how you don't need to take Extended Duration on an Affliction of Warp - if you teleport the victim somewhere else, they won't come back after the duration of the Affliction expires. Same story here, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

A couple of other issues with the original write-up that occurred to me:
Affliction is not continuous by default, i.e., you don't get a free attack just by touching your target. I think you need Aura to get the effect you want.

You might be right, I'll look into this and modify accordingly.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I'm not sure that the effect should add on inherently, although it might, based on the way Steal Youth normally works. It would be kind of interesting if this build bypassed the normal need for Cumulative. That might be worth checking with Kromm to be certain of.

I'll try to check with Kromm about this one. But I suspect Cumulative is not necessary, since Unaging isn't a levelled trait (my revised build is using a slight tweak to allow its Age Control enhancement to be levelled, but that's the modifier, not the trait), and neither are "Old Age" or "Youth" levelled traits - in fact they're not traits at all. Again, I'd compare it with afflicting Warp; if the attacker afflicts you with Warp, he can teleport you multiple times if he should so choose for the duration of the Affliction. He doesn't need Cumulative for that. I think the same applies here because the aging is a game effect, much like location. Cumulative is explicitly only required to add or subtract levels to levelled traits or do multiple Attribute Penalties, and that doesn't seem to apply here.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I suddenly remember another proposal for an age control affliction, and the model that made the most sense then was an AF attack with traits in the change form that simulate age.

I've heard that one too. And I don't like it, because it only simulates age. You can make someone look older. You can give them a few attribute penalties to make them feel older. But their biological age won't be older. They'll still be as far away from their next aging threshold - when they have to start to make HT rolls to avoid decline - as they were before. If I do this to a 25 year old, I can make him seem and feel 70 for all intents and purposes, but he'll still be a 25 year old who will appear to stay 70 and unaging for at least another 25 years (when he hits 50, the first aging threshold). It's just not the same. If I was playing a character, I'd much prefer to be made to look and feel very old (which also might be easier to get healed or fixed) than to have lost years off of my lifespan. I'm sure if most characters could talk to their players, they'd say the same thing. And there is a big difference when it comes to reversing the effects. Someone with Healing that can Heal Afflictions could heal the Affliction of Attribute Penalties and cosmetic appearance change. But, if my assumption that the aging (or rejuvenation) is an effect of the ability (much like a different location is an effect of Warp), then the same Affliction Healer will be powerless to restore you to your real age if it's been altered up or down by the above power, just like he can't heal someone that once had Affliction (Warp) done on them so that they magically return to the place from where they were teleported.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

If I do this to a 25 year old, I can make him seem and feel 70 for all intents and purposes, but he'll still be a 25 year old who will appear to stay 70 and unaging for at least another 25 years (when he hits 50, the first aging threshold). I.

No if it's an alternate form he really will be that old.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

They'll still be as far away from their next aging threshold - when they have to start to make HT rolls to avoid decline - as they were before.

Give them Short Lifespan.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No if it's an alternate form he really will be that old.

Okay, that's true and makes sense, and would work as an aging attack. But can you afflict a custom Alternate Form that isn't a racial template but is instead an on-the-fly template which is basically just consisting of an age (and maybe some attribute penalties to go with it, if you want to make them really old)?

One thing to note is that that can be healed by someone who can heal afflictions. I don't think the same applies to aging from my power build. Also, could you use Affliction (Alternate Form) to make a person an arbitrary age (younger or older) chosen on the fly? And would it look like they just transformed into an old person, or would they appear to grow older as part of the transformation (I guess this part could be considered a valueless special effect)? How much would a build using Affliction and Alternate Form with Extended Duration, Permanent, +150% cost?

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Give them Short Lifespan.

If you didn't give them that Short Lifespan with Extended Duration, Permanent, it wouldn't end up hurting them much. And if you did, then the game effect won't be the same - you'll be not only making them older but giving them a degenerative accelerated aging disorder. And that's not bad, but it doesn't model the effect of aging someone a certain amount and then stopping and leaving them older but otherwise normal.

And this is only for aging a person. Only Unaging with Age Control and Alternate Form (at least so it seems) can make a person younger, the other side of age control.

The only other alternative to making a person younger is to Afflict them with Leech (Steal Youth) and then tell them to start hugging people whilst activating their power, and watch the years slowly fade away, if they can live with themselves and it doesn't violate some Code of Honor or something.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I know - the above depends on the fact that the attacker controls the Age Control power (esp in the case of the aging attack). Default duration of Affliction is in minutes (depending on the margin of failure of the victim's HT roll, if they choose to resist the Malediction, otherwise margin of success of wielder's Will roll). So it would be at least 10 minutes of aging per successful attack.

I don't know about that. The aging (or rejuvenation) is a side effect of the advantage on the character. I don't think you need Extended Duration here, unless you want to allow the attacker to be capable of controlling the age of his victims for longer or extend the duration of the benefits of the Unaging on the victim. To my mind, any aging or rejuvenation that happened while the advantage was being controlled by the attacker are permanent because they're just game effects of having had the affliction (they're things you can do with Unaging with Age Control). It's the same as how you don't need to take Extended Duration on an Affliction of Warp - if you teleport the victim somewhere else, they won't come back after the duration of the Affliction expires. Same story here, IMHO.

I don't think that's right. Afflictions are transient, so you attack, the affliction (if the target doesn't resist) produces its effect and the attack is done. The effect is what has the duration, not the affliction itself. I specified transformation-type specifically to point out that this effect belongs (MO) to that set. All of those types of afflictions (that I am aware of) have durations determined normally, unlike certain transient abilities, such as Warp, which apparently produce their effect w/o consideration of the normal duration rules. I have a problem with that, but it's not directly relevant to this build.

I'll try to check with Kromm about this one. But I suspect Cumulative is not necessary, since Unaging isn't a levelled trait (my revised build is using a slight tweak to allow its Age Control enhancement to be levelled, but that's the modifier, not the trait), and neither are "Old Age" or "Youth" levelled traits - in fact they're not traits at all. Again, I'd compare it with afflicting Warp; if the attacker afflicts you with Warp, he can teleport you multiple times if he should so choose for the duration of the Affliction. He doesn't need Cumulative for that. I think the same applies here because the aging is a game effect, much like location. Cumulative is explicitly only required to add or subtract levels to levelled traits or do multiple Attribute Penalties, and that doesn't seem to apply here.

Post up his reply when you find out. It might be of general interest. Regarding Warp as an Affliction: By my understanding (and as per my above explanation), you do not get to Warp a target around for a time equal to what the duration would be. Instead, you Warp them once (the attack), they go wherever (if they failed to resist) and the affliction ends.

I've heard that one too. And I don't like it, because it only simulates age. You can make someone look older. You can give them a few attribute penalties to make them feel older. But their biological age won't be older. They'll still be as far away from their next aging threshold - when they have to start to make HT rolls to avoid decline - as they were before. If I do this to a 25 year old, I can make him seem and feel 70 for all intents and purposes, but he'll still be a 25 year old who will appear to stay 70 and unaging for at least another 25 years (when he hits 50, the first aging threshold). It's just not the same. If I was playing a character, I'd much prefer to be made to look and feel very old (which also might be easier to get healed or fixed) than to have lost years off of my lifespan. I'm sure if most characters could talk to their players, they'd say the same thing. And there is a big difference when it comes to reversing the effects. Someone with Healing that can Heal Afflictions could heal the Affliction of Attribute Penalties and cosmetic appearance change. But, if my assumption that the aging (or rejuvenation) is an effect of the ability (much like a different location is an effect of Warp), then the same Affliction Healer will be powerless to restore you to your real age if it's been altered up or down by the above power, just like he can't heal someone that once had Affliction (Warp) done on them so that they magically return to the place from where they were teleported.

DJ pointed out that the age is real as far as the target is concerned. There are reasons that the AF might not fit what you want, but note that using Age Control is a transformation just as AF is, and should be subject to Affliction Healing as well.