Leech (Steal Youth) Modifier Pricing, etc.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

I answered your question. Not liking the answer doesn't impact on the answer's correctness. :)

Granted. Still don't like it though. ;-)

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

GMs build characters too. We have published guidelines for effective invulnerability, I can build an actual invulnerability and I know I can build a power that stops time while still allowing the user to act. None of these things are cheap, but the system does allow you to do them.

I know, and I've built out those things too. My main point was that I really don't see aging powers as falling into the same category, let alone the same league.

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

It violates the player's concept of the character. It doesn't have to be effective (combat-wise; mechanically speaking) to do this. Player's don't like things that violate their character concepts.
Besides, combat effectiveness isn't the only guideline for trait pricing.

I agree wholeheartedly, as I said, it would bother me if my character was prematurely aged even if I still had a good 15 years before I hit 50 and started to have to make HT rolls and I knew the campaign probably wouldn't go that long. Good roleplayers would all generally feel that way. But a good roleplayer could also handle having Leech (Steal Youth) as an ability, such that it wouldn't be abusive or harm the campaign world, which is why I'd argue for it to be priced more cheaply.

I certainly wouldn't base all prices on combat effectiveness either. But Leech (Steal Youth) should probably have pricing comparable to Unaging, precisely because it achieves roughly the same effect for the wielder, and except at very high levels won't even produce noticeable effects on victims. Unless the GM or the Leech went out of their way to point out that an aging attack might have happened, someone in there 20s or 30s might not even realize that they were aged even 3 or 4 years in one go, and to get that amount of aging out of Steal Youth requires either very many seconds of contact or ridiculously high levels of it (it's only a month per level).

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

"priced according to its' effects on the player characters" is a reasonable explanation, as I can think of no reason for the price.
Can you think of another explanation that fits the facts we have available to us?

No, I think you're right. But, respectfully, I don't like it or agree with it. It's precisely the good roleplayers that would care if their characters were aged a few years that could handle roleplaying having this ability responsibly. Ironically it's the players that wouldn't give a crap unless they had to start making their aging HT rolls that would abuse this power and cause campaign problems (but the same could be said for any of the other abilities and rules).

And in general I dislike this ability because it's kind of a composite beast made of two abilities: (1) aging others and (2) rejuvenating yourself, neither one of which you can do independently (and there are some spells, tech, and fictional powers that can't be modelled as GURPS powers without the ability to freely age and rejuvenate either yourself or others, independently of the reverse effect happening to someone else).

And then to add insult to injury, it was kludged into Leech, when rightfully it works so differently that it shouldn't be part of it at all. It's almost as bad as if they'd made Static a "special enhancement" to Obscure, because, you know, Obscure jams senses in a way that could be described as static, and Static jams powers and is named "static", so yeah, put them together. The two are different beasts in an unhappy shotgun marriage. There aren't even any modifiers that let you Steal Youth but turn it into HP or FP for yourself instead of rejuvenating - and healing HP is the core thing of Leech! Sorry, done ranting...

[Bruno]

Sorry for not getting back to this thread last night, I didn't have any time before my game after work. And now the thread's gone on without me *sniff*

I think you're missing the obviously similar mechanical effects of Steal Youth vs the other Leech abilities. It has a LOT in common - just the little part about what exactly happens once you finish resolving the actual attack is a slightly harder fit.

To whit, it's a touch-only ability that requires extensive physical contact, not just casual contact, that requires Malediction before it can become Ranged at all, uses a high buy-in cost and a lower cost per additional level, transfers something from the victim to the user, etc. etc.

I think those are all good attributes for Steal Youth. I think SJG can be forgiven for saying "lets make it a modifier of Leech!" because all the game mechanical baggage that comes with Leech is, in my opinion, good baggage for Steal Youth.

It's just that last part that needs fussing with, and I'm actually pretty comfortable with it as written if you just speed it up to "years" instead of "months" (which as far as house rules go, is a pretty mild houserule).

I'm comfortable with it being moderately expensive - unlike Ability damage or even Radiation damage, PCs don't recover ANY aging damage on their own. 90% of Radiation damage heals naturally, 0% of aging damage heals naturally AND the PC is constantly exposed to more sources of aging (ie, continues to age naturally due to the passage of time), which makes ANY aging more threatening. An NPC can stay way away from further sources of radiation - they can't escape aging in almost every setting (not all, but even in the ones where it's available it tends to be hard to achieve - or it's the kind of scifi setting where age-sucking vampires don't fit in in the first place).


Regarding NPCs knowing (or not knowing) killing the PC won't get their stolen years back - any campaign featuring powers of any kind, except a campaign where the PCs are defined as the first empowered creatures ever, can be expected to have people studying the empowered. There will be hidden lore skills, genetic or alchemical tests, oracles or divinations, gods to ask questions of directly, university professors studying advanced psychobionetics with a government grant, the SuperWiki website, something.

Yes, there's always a chance the individual is an exceptional version of "whatever", but that'll probably be obvious. PCs generally aren't subtle about being unique - it's usually the players pride and joy that their PC is the only chaotic good dark elf (or whatever).

Assuming that anyone who's been supernaturally aged will go hunt down the character on the off chance that he's actually a weak age-sucking vampire and will restore their stolen years once killed means risking tangling again with the age-sucking vampire who's successfully sucked their youth out once already. That's the kind of thing you want to be more confident about before you risk being aged AGAIN. Or you want to hire some more-competent adventurers to handle so you don't risk your precious self on it ;)

[Bruno]

In a campaign where "age damage" is actually curable on any feasible scale, I would knock about +150% off the cost of the enhancement (as well as the previously noted months-to-years shift). Alchemical youth potions being easy to get, youth spells, drug-store youth rayguns, fountains of youth with commercial tour packages and youth spas complete with japanese hot-spring type tourist attractions, whatever.

If your setting is one where the threat of being aged is not one of incurably driving someone closer to death and where Unaging might be leased for a low monthly rate, the intimidation value is sucked right out of it, and what you're left with is "saving the PC money by giving him a naughty way to youthify himself and temporarily inconvenience other people". Which is what stealing HP or FP is in most settings where PCs can buy Leech in the first place - but with the added complication that the Leech is still stuck with the "normal" "Unhealing (Age damage)" and "Draining (age damage)" package, which makes stealing youth more valuable in the first place.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

It can make for good drama, good roleplaying. If it's an NPC "monstrous" ability, why not make it worth a 1000 points, or a million?

Why not? As I said, I really don't care.

But because no values are listed, not even suggestions, your suggestion to "Afflict them to the same age" isn't possible, because what would that cost?

I didn't use those words. There's no need to "Afflict them to the same age" as whatever you have in mind. Just Afflict them with lowered characteristics and say it's because they're old. That will be infinitely more effective in combat than trying to give them accelerated aging.

And it'd be grossly overpriced compared to just getting Unaging

Not if you get it as an Alternative Attack. Then it's a good deal. Just not something of any value in combat.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I didn't use those words. There's no need to "Afflict them to the same age" as whatever you have in mind. Just Afflict them with lowered characteristics and say it's because they're old. That will be infinitely more effective in combat than trying to give them accelerated aging.

I think it was a direct quote, but that doesn't matter. But I do have a problem with afflicting lowered characteristics and handwaving "they're old" as a feature with a 0 point value. First, there are other things to being older than (potential) attribute loss - change in appearance, for one. I won't say it has to be a negative change (but it often is), but it will be a change, and that change will change the ways you are perceived by different people. And besides, aging in GURPS up to age 50 (and beyond with good HT rolls) won't have any attribute loss. Doing it your way with an Affliction lowering attributes and maybe an appearance alteration won't trigger more frequent aging rolls, it'll just make them frailer and maybe look older. Looking older or younger could even be a decent disguise - if a 25 year old suddenly looked like they were in their 50s or 60s, people would definitely see a resemblance but think more of a father or other family member.

That's why Age Control is a +20% enhancement on Unaging - it can be advantageous to choose your age. Although I guess that could be a way to do it, my whole aging / reverse aging power thing. As far as I can see, the following, although admittedly very slow, is legal according to RAW.

Control Age:
Affliction (Advantage, Unaging, Age Control, 180%; Contact Agent, -30%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +150%; Malediction, +100%) [35/level]
Notes: While you are in direct physical contact with a person, you can make them grow younger or older at 10 times their normal aging rate. This will be very slow and it will take you about 36.5 days to rejuvenate or age the target even a year. You must win a Quick Contest of your Will vs. the target's HT -1 per your level, or an unopposed Will roll if the target can't or chooses not to resist. Any aging or rejuvenation is permanent on the target until you die. 50/level

If we allow for levels of the Age Control enhancement, we can make it go arbitrarily faster or slower. Given that both Extended and Short Lifespan are valued in an exponential way, let's say for each +20% level of Age Control you age or de-age by another factor of ten applied to the normal aging rate. +20% would be 10 x, +40% would be 100 x, +80% would be 10K x, +100% would be 100K x, etc. All of this is only playing around with modifiers, we're not really substantially straying from RAW here.

There are 43,200 minutes in a 30 day period (about a month). Unaging (Age Control, 100K x normal age rate, +100%) is 30 points. If we applied that to the above, we're given a cost of 62 points per Affliction level, and the affliction will age or rejuvenate them a little over 2 months a minute. Since you just have to touch them for a second and the duration of the Affliction is in minutes based on the margin of failure of the HT roll if target resists (your margin of success on your Will roll otherwise), we can compare it to Leech 2 (Steal Youth) - we get at least a tiny bit more aging (minimum one minute duration, during which they age 2 months and change vs Leech 2's 2 months per attack), all for 62 points (for Afflicted Unaging with levelled Age Control) vs 87 points for Leech 2 (Steal Youth). If you miss not having to worry about aging, slap Unaging on yourself, and it's still 10 points cheaper 87 - (62+15) = 10. And remember, this power lets you make people older or younger, and if you never use it you still won't age if you have Unaging.

Admittedly it's a slight divergence from RAW, but then again, all I did was take an existing modifier and say it was levelled (and levelled in a way consistent with the only two other levelled age-related traits). And the way those age rate levels work, at +120% we have 1M x normal, for only 3 more points we can age a person 20 months per minute. Of course, if you wanted to argue that, contrary to the exponential progression of levels in Extended and Short Lifespan traits, we should do it in a linear progression (+40% means 20x instead of 100x), then it will be grossly expensive (moreso than Leech) at higher age rates.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I think it was a direct quote, but that doesn't matter. But I do have a problem with afflicting lowered characteristics and handwaving "they're old" as a feature with a 0 point value. First, there are other things to being older than (potential) attribute loss - change in appearance, for one. I won't say it has to be a negative change (but it often is), but it will be a change, and that change will change the ways you are perceived by different people. And besides, aging in GURPS up to age 50 (and beyond with good HT rolls) won't have any attribute loss. .

Which is exactly why trying to accelerate aging in combat is way more expensive than its practical utility justifies and I prefer to directly Afflict attributes down (and toss in a cosmetic shapeshift)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

As far as I can see, the following, although admittedly very slow, is legal according to RAW.

Actually, I suspect you don't need Extended Duration; when the Affliction ends the character will return to aging normally, but any aging done while under the effects of the affliction should be permanent.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Which is exactly why trying to accelerate aging in combat is way more expensive than its practical utility justifies and I prefer to directly Afflict attributes down (and toss in a cosmetic shapeshift)

That's reasonable if you're only in it for the immediate combat utility. As long you don't mind that the person, although they'll look and feel older, won't be any closer to their next age threshold and hence might not suffer any further decline for many more years (decades even, depending on real age, HT, avoiding unlucky HT rolls, and assuming a normal human lifespan), then that's fine. It also will be easier for them to be healed of the affliction than if they were legitimately biologically aged. And it will have the "benefit" of working around the Unaging or Extended Lifespan advantages for any victims that have them. Again, if it's only about immediacy, then your way works - "Abracadabra: Look and feel old". But clearly someone thought screwing with the real age of a character regardless of attribute loss might be a big deal, or else Leech (Steal Youth) wouldn't be priced as highly. Certainly if I was the player I would rather look and feel old (having been afflicted with lost attributes) than to really have lost years off of my character's life. And if the campaign runs long enough or skips ahead in time, real age will begin to become important.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

That's why Age Control is a +20% enhancement on Unaging - it can be advantageous to choose your age. Although I guess that could be a way to do it, my whole aging / reverse aging power thing. As far as I can see, the following, although admittedly very slow, is legal according to RAW.

Control Age:
Affliction (Advantage, Unaging, Age Control, 180%; Contact Agent, -30%; Extended Duration, Permanent, +150%; Malediction, +100%) [35/level]
Notes: While you are in direct physical contact with a person, you can make them grow younger or older at 10 times their normal aging rate. This will be very slow and it will take you about 36.5 days to rejuvenate or age the target even a year. You must win a Quick Contest of your Will vs. the target's HT -1 per your level, or an unopposed Will roll if the target can't or chooses not to resist. Any aging or rejuvenation is permanent on the target until you die. 50/level

I'm not taking issue with your argument that Steal Youth looks overpriced, but compare the above build with a base version of the enhanced Leech. The latter costs 100 points. It only works in one direction, and requires a victim to be any benefit at all... but it works five orders of magnitude faster and doesn't allow a resistance roll.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Assuming that anyone who's been supernaturally aged will go hunt down the character on the off chance that he's actually a weak age-sucking vampire and will restore their stolen years once killed means risking tangling again with the age-sucking vampire who's successfully sucked their youth out once already. That's the kind of thing you want to be more confident about before you risk being aged AGAIN. Or you want to hire some more-competent adventurers to handle so you don't risk your precious self on it ;)

If that's the case, then they'd be hunting you down even if killing you won't restore their youth. A which point, what is the benefit of the +450% vs +300% if they're all going to be hunting you down anyway?

I'm more inclined to follow the Extended Duration with Permanent reasoning, as I can fully grasp that one. But the "you have people hunting you down", I don't buy, as they'll hunt you down either way on the chance that it will work.

Also, if you want people hunting you down, then that should be represented by the Enemies disadvantages, not hidden into another trait.