Surprise

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Witchking

emphasis mine

Of all the other benefits of Combat Reflexes (and there are threats a plenty out there try serach Combat Reflexes underpriced ;->)...the bonuses to avoid the freeze/recover from Stun are the Most Valuable IMHO...especiallydfor a IQ 10 (or less) Figther type.

I once ran a fantasy figher with only IQ 9 (would never do that again) if he didn't have Cbt Relexes he would never have made it.

Without CBT Reflexes get surprised and get hammered for a round...then start rolling hoping for that NINE. (could easily go another 2-3 rounds).


With CBT Relexes take your lumps for a round...DON'T roll that 16,17,18 and then move on....

It's the little bonuses that can make the difference....

Dumb fighters who can't afford CR should consider this perk I invented:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...ppy#post621508

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

This creates the issue "When do you roll for the surprise".

Because it's a state-of-mind issue, this necessarily has to be subjective. It's probably best to ask the would-be attackers when they wish to open fire.

If you're rolling 1d vs. 1d to see who spooks whom, that line is where it happens. A loss for the ambushers means their targets were more alert than they looked, and shoot first.

Example: "We hide behind the bar. We shoot as soon as their last guy is in the door." "Okay, roll 1d, and I'll give you +3 for planning." "Uh, 1 plus 3 is 4." "Well, they rolled a 6 and come through the door blazing." "Crap . . ."

If you're making fancy Quick Contests against Camouflage or Stealth, then you also have to set the danger radius being scanned by the NPCs. They can set it wherever they like, but the further out it is, the heftier the range penalty. When one party crosses the other's line for the first time, roll the Contest. Victory for the party that isn't hiding means the ambushers are sitting in plain sight, thinking they have the initiative, when they're hit an instant before they would hit. Thus, saying, "We're watching 100 yards" is fine, but if you screw up your roll at 100 yards, you're surprised and don't get a roll when you step inside the 20-yard line your enemies picked. "We're watching 10 yards" means you roll at that 20-yard line for those enemies, but might do well against guys around corners waiting for you to get within arm's reach!

Example: Setup as above. If the GM already decided the NPCs were not on high alert, they get a Sense roll (probably penalized for range) vs. the PCs' Stealth (likely with a bonus for concealment) on entering, and only get the drop if they win. If the GM concluded that the NPCs were looking for trouble in the street, he'd roll their Hearing vs. Stealth to notice the PCs setting up, or even Streetwise vs. Stealth to see worried patrons, hookers, etc. fleeing. If they won, they'd bust in with the advantage of surprise.

It's important to realize that most hiding places actually suck. People get shot through furniture, doors, walls, etc. all the time by twitchy enemies who thought they heard something. They don't in movies, of course. If you're running cinematic realism, then don't roll at all for the NPCs . . . just let the PCs roll vs. Stealth and if they succeed, they get surprise.

Originally Posted by dgrm4

If you don't do it early enough then you may have to reverse time on the PCs. Also, the PCs have a tendency to change their minds as they setup the ambush so again...

You ask the players what their plan is and when they will shoot. You do not reveal a darned thing about the enemy that they don't know at the time they make their plan. Once they speak, they are locked in, and anybody who changes his mind is confused and loses surprise automatically. Then you explain what the NPCs are doing, and roll the above rolls.

[dgrm4]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You ask the players what their plan is and when they will shoot. You do not reveal a darned thing about the enemy that they don't know at the time they make their plan. Once they speak, they are locked in, and anybody who changes his mind is confused and loses surprise automatically. Then you explain what the NPCs are doing, and roll the above rolls.

I think one of the problems is that in my group we like to roleplay a lot and I think the players like being in a tense roleplay and then they have to make up their mind each second as the scene plays out. So the 'locked in' approach technically would work, however I dont think it is as fun as the roleplaying up to the action of guns/grenades a-blazing. Did that make sense? It is difficult to put some of these abstract ideas into concrete words.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

As the mercs entered 1 said where is Zack, as this was their make-shift hideout (Zack had already been dispatched by the PCs earlier). PC said, "what would you like to drink".

The Mercs had gotten wind that something was fishy in their hideout. When they realized the bartender was a fake, they click twice, stall for time ("Where is Zack?") just long enough to get the response, and then click twice again.

A .308 round comes through the window, the "bartender" goes down in a bloody mess, and the shooting starts. They will probably guess that the fake bartender probably won't be the only ambusher, the bar is the obvious hiding place, and concealment != cover.

That's counter-ambush.

[dgrm4]

I guess what I did was make up my mind that the NPCs would NOT sniff out the ambush, unless the PCs did something stupid/funny during the roleplay after they entered into the bar. And yes, they come up with some funny stuff!

But I could have done a secret quick contest as soon as they said we are hiding behind the bar. Loser then gets partial surprise. Then roleplay the results somehow.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

I guess what I did was make up my mind that the NPCs would NOT sniff out the ambush, unless the PCs did something stupid/funny during the roleplay after they entered into the bar. And yes, they come up with some funny stuff!

But I could have done a secret quick contest as soon as they said we are hiding behind the bar. Loser then gets partial surprise. Then roleplay the results somehow.

You could also roll the surprise check earlier, but only determine if it's a success once the trap is finally sprung - if the players do something that would have given a penalty to the surprise check, and it's enough to make it so the original roll was a failure, then the mercs got wind of the ambush and were able to act on that info.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

This creates the issue "When do you roll for the surprise". If you don't do it early enough then you may have to reverse time on the PCs. Also, the PCs have a tendency to change their minds as they setup the ambush so again...when do you make the surprise roll?

It seems to me that there could be a better way to implement this rule.

When the PC's rolled to spot the Incoming Bad Guys (ie looking out through the 2nd Story window), the bad guys should have gotten a roll to spot the PC looking at them. Now depending on time of day, relative angles of the looker, lookie and the sun there would very likely be some penalties...but that is where I would have started...

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

I guess what I did was make up my mind that the NPCs would NOT sniff out the ambush, unless the PCs did something stupid/funny during the roleplay after they entered into the bar. And yes, they come up with some funny stuff!

But I could have done a secret quick contest as soon as they said we are hiding behind the bar. Loser then gets partial surprise. Then roleplay the results somehow.

Well if you as the GM decide that the scenario would play out that way then thats cool.

However when the time comes and you want to up the challenge level remember some of the things that have been mentioned in this thread.

On the sliding scale from street thugs to Operators one of the steepest climbs is from Take things for Granted to Assume your Own Grandmother is Packing and Hates you...so Pat her Down to be Sure.

Because the serious pros have probably seen a lot of people die who "didn't want to waste time double checking the obvious..." So now they do check, everybody, all the time.

[hal]

Much of the advice given depends upon the motivations of the players versus the motivations of the Versus the style of game play.

For instance, if the idea is to provide the illusion of danger for the player characters, but never put them in a life/death situation where they will lose their character, that is one style of game play. If on the other hand, the intent is to run a simulation, where the rules favor neither the NPCs or the PCs - that is another style of play. Then you have the half of one, half of the other type of thing, where usually it isn't a simulation style game, because when the dice come up bad against the player character, it is generally "curtains" for the unlucky character.

Me? I would hate to play in a campaign in which either

A) I can never win because the GM rigs the game
B) I can never lose because the GM rigs the game

Net result? I tend not to enjoy games in which the GM rigs the results ;)

That having been said? I honestly understand why some people grow so attached to their characters that they do not want to lose the character to some bad luck at the gaming table with the dice. A careful player on the other hand, will try to minimize those times when the dice will roll bad, and will be on edge of his seat with the realization that the dice CAN come up bad or it can come up good. That for me, is part of the excitement.

[dgrm4]

Originally Posted by hal

Much of the advice given depends upon the motivations of the players versus the motivations of the Versus the style of game play.

For instance, if the idea is to provide the illusion of danger for the player characters, but never put them in a life/death situation where they will lose their character, that is one style of game play. If on the other hand, the intent is to run a simulation, where the rules favor neither the NPCs or the PCs - that is another style of play. Then you have the half of one, half of the other type of thing, where usually it isn't a simulation style game, because when the dice come up bad against the player character, it is generally "curtains" for the unlucky character.

Me? I would hate to play in a campaign in which either

A) I can never win because the GM rigs the game
B) I can never lose because the GM rigs the game

Net result? I tend not to enjoy games in which the GM rigs the results ;)

That having been said? I honestly understand why some people grow so attached to their characters that they do not want to lose the character to some bad luck at the gaming table with the dice. A careful player on the other hand, will try to minimize those times when the dice will roll bad, and will be on edge of his seat with the realization that the dice CAN come up bad or it can come up good. That for me, is part of the excitement.

Even when you stack the odds in favor of the PCs they can still lose. We have already had one PC get shot to death trying to take this Bar/Brothel. Bad dice rolls and bad plan by the PCs (good die rolls by NPC enemies). I don't know if you would call it 'rigging the game', but I do give my PCs a slight advantage because I want them to succeed and drive the story forward....and THEY are the story. But, if they do slip then they do die. Gurps can be a deadly system even without the surprise rules RAW....SHEESH, can't we give the PCs any breaks????