Surprise

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You mean 393, I think, but other than that you're quite right. I'm not sure how I managed to misread that the way I did.

Fixed.

You may have been misled by, "This is the number of seconds that pass before the defenders can react at all." (Emphasis theirs.) Obviously an attempt to defend is a reaction, so it would be less confusing if it said "can consciously react" or "can act".

[dgrm4]

I appreciate everyone's responses and explanations, but I still don't like these rules. And if I was a player planning a trap and my GM said roll for surprise and suddenly I was the one stunned if even for only 1 second I would not like it...especially if I knew ahead of time the enemy count that was walking into the bar.

I believe I have found my first Gurps 4e house rule. Maybe minor changes to surprise and partial surprise and new rule to handle Ambushing.

Just to restate the original situation with more details (probably should have done this to begin with), the 3 PCs saw from a window upstairs the 3 Mercs approaching (1 was a guy they have been after for a while). They ran downstairs and hid behind the bar waiting for them as they three entered into the bar. 1 of the PCs was standing pretending to be the bar tender with his hand on his SMG right below the bar. As the mercs entered 1 said where is Zack, as this was their make-shift hideout (Zack had already been dispatched by the PCs earlier). PC said, "what would you like to drink". Merc said, "you don't belong here, you need to get out now." 2 hidden PCs jumped up and started shooting and the PC/bartender pulled his SMG up and began spraying bullets as well.

I ruled that they all get first attack, even though 1 NPC was faster. I also ruled that the SMG didn't require a ready manuever as they would have the edge. Now I can see a one sided Quick Contest for Ambush stun that would only involve the NPCs being stunned if they lost, or maybe No stun and no advantage to the PCs if they were the ones to lose instead. But PC partial stun? No way jose.

I may have to pick up the tactical shooting rules and see what it says verbatim as there may be more options in there that might apply.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

I appreciate everyone's responses and explanations, but I still don't like these rules.

Ok.

However there are a number of places where in the described scenario where the PC's could have blown the Ambush.

Now if the NPC's had seen them through the 2nd Story window and had not come through the front door but had done something else. Rear door, dive through windows, up the outside and start firefight from stairwell etc...would you still say that there would not be a way the Ambush could turn on the PC's? Just curious?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

1. I find it very hard to believe that the Ambushers may be surprised, UNLESS a monster/alien that they were NOT expecting is part of the group they are trying to ambush.

It's called a counter-ambush. Instead of the ambushers catching the other guys unawares, the prospective ambushees notice ambush ahead of time, plan accordingly, and then ambush the original ambushers. It would be unrealistic to not have this as a possibility.

Now if the NPC's had seen them through the 2nd Story window and had not come through the front door but had done something else. Rear door, dive through windows, up the outside and start firefight from stairwell etc...would you still say that there would not be a way the Ambush could turn on the PC's? Just curious?

Not to mention 'lobbed several grenades through the windows'.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

Just to restate the original situation with more details (probably should have done this to begin with), the 3 PCs saw from a window upstairs the 3 Mercs approaching (1 was a guy they have been after for a while). They ran downstairs and hid behind the bar waiting for them as they three entered into the bar. 1 of the PCs was standing pretending to be the bar tender with his hand on his SMG right below the bar. As the mercs entered 1 said where is Zack, as this was their make-shift hideout (Zack had already been dispatched by the PCs earlier). PC said, "what would you like to drink". Merc said, "you don't belong here, you need to get out now." 2 hidden PCs jumped up and started shooting and the PC/bartender pulled his SMG up and began spraying bullets as well.

I ruled that they all get first attack, even though 1 NPC was faster. I also ruled that the SMG didn't require a ready manuever as they would have the edge. Now I can see a one sided Quick Contest for Ambush stun that would only involve the NPCs being stunned if they lost, or maybe No stun and no advantage to the PCs if they were the ones to lose instead. But PC partial stun? No way jose.

I may have to pick up the tactical shooting rules and see what it says verbatim as there may be more options in there that might apply.

There aren't more options, but I don't think that's the sort of 'ambush' the rules are made for. The presence of a front man who (incompetently) tries to bluff the target isn't typical. At least, you'd be justified in rolling different skills than TS specifies for the ambush, if not changing it in other ways.

But that 'ambush' would be trivial to reverse. All you need is for the mercs to catch on to the situation without the PCs realizing it, and start shooting first.

Merc says "Where's Zack?", but he can tell it's a trap, recognizes the 'bartender' is no bartender and (based on stance/body language) is hiding a weapon, and is buying a little time while making sure his friends see it too with surreptitious gestures. When the oblivious PC says "What would you like to drink?", the mercs draw guns and grenades and open up on him and the entire bar area. Suddenly the PCs are totally wrong-footed, and also possibly dead. Any of them who aren't incapacitated, failing a fear check, or rock-stupid will nonetheless be able to return fire in a couple seconds, though.

Or if they catch on even sooner and don't enter the ambush at all, but at that point I wouldn't use the ambush rules at all. Others might differ, but the way that plan is arranged I wouldn't have made an 'ambush roll' prior to entering the bar.

[Kromm]

The source of confusion seems to be that you adjudicated how the situation would unfold before you ever rolled the dice, in your mind at least. You had the lead merc walk in as if he had already fallen for an ambush, and only then did you roll for it. There's nothing wrong with assessing surprise to one side or the other on the basis of what the players say the PCs are doing and what you've decided the NPCs would do – that's a big part of roleplaying, and one of many things that differentiates RPGs from war games! But that mode of adjudication has an either/or relationship with rolling dice for the situation. You don't do both.

Imagine talking out the interaction between a punk and an action hero for a dozen lines of dialogue, during which time you roleplay the punk as backing down, using submissive language, and so forth. Then the hero rolls Intimidation vs. the punk's Will . . . and loses badly. Would you have the punk suddenly not be scared? Well, no – as the GM, you've already decided that he'd be scared and you've portrayed things that way. You've sent the player the message, "You roleplayed this encounter so well that, since you have the right skills, I'm giving this one to you." It would be a *** to roll the dice and have the punk laugh it off.

Consider an attempt to avoid guards. The players tell you their strategy and you let the PCs keep moving in, getting past guards, and apparently succeeding. Then, when they're at the objective, you have them roll Stealth vs. Perception . . . and they lose badly. Would you retcon the whole situation to have the guards cut them off? Hopefully not – as the GM, you've already decided that the plan for getting in would work and you've portrayed things that way. You've sent the players the message, "You planned your approach so well that, since you have the right skills, I'm giving this one to you." It would be cheap to roll the dice and turn the tables.

The case at hand is no different. If you were going to roll, you should've done so before the mercs ever stepped inside. If they had won and sent somebody in anyway, it would've been to distract from a counter-ambush. And then yes, the heroes could definitely have been surprised! While they were bunched up and hiding blind behind the bar, focused on one guy, the other two could've been doing anything. It's radical, but if these mercs were huge badasses, the man at the bar might've strapped on a second vest borrowed from one of his pals, done some coke, and been ready to get shot for the cause. When he didn't go down and the gunfire had deafened the PCs to the shots coming in the windows from the sides, the PCs would realize they'd been had.

GURPS generally assumes this process when PCs face NPCs:

1. Initial planning or roleplay by the PCs and/or NPCs, with the GM giving no hints as to the results and the players understanding that their choice of words and/or actions may or may not bear on the situation.
   
   
2. Judgment of quality of dialogue or planning by the GM, if he wishes to act subjectively and reward good ideas or penalize bad ones. He may instead decide to leave things to the dice and not meddle – because the PCs are the experts, not the players – although many players find it fun to gamble here.
   
   
3. Assessment of objective modifiers noted in the rules.
   
   
4. Dice rolls, with any subjective (Step 2) or objective (Step 3) modifiers assigned above.
   
   
5. Comparison of dice rolls to rules for canonical results.
   
   
6. Description of results by the GM, which is when reactive dialog or action, surprise, etc. is assessed.

GURPS supports the abridged, more roleplaying-friendly order 1-2-6, too! It also supports 3-4-5, for situations in which everybody agrees to leave it to the dice, because they're not personally subject-matter experts. The trouble is that you did 1-2-6 and then did 3-4-5, and found 5 and 6 to be in conflict. You can do 1-2-3-4-5-6 and have 5 inform 6, but doing 1-2-6-3-4-5 will rarely if ever make sense.

[Kromm]

Incidentally, surprise in real life is rather subjective to begin with. It's mostly a state-of-mind issue. It's quite possible to be surprised by a state of mind that you didn't account for.

In the example at hand, even if you have the mercs walk in before rolling dice, there are valid ways for you to interpret victory on their part in a manner that would grant them the element of surprise. A very good roll might mean extreme mental preparation: They had an SOP for trouble at the bar, and as soon as the lead man walked in and spotted the fake bartender, he subtly took his safety off, went to Condition Orange, dropped a hand, and gave the trouble sign to his pals, behind him and out of the fake bartender's line of sight. The other two, obscured from the fake bartender's sight by their lead man, also went Orange, got ready, and stepped to either side. All three were savvy enough to know that nobody jumps three men by himself, and picked mental aim points behind or through the bar. And since the mercs won by lots, they did this so subtly that the only PC who could catch on missed it . . . and his allies were hiding behind a bar, unable to clue in. Then an instant before the lead PC could signal, bring up his SMG, whatever, the mercs seized the initiative, blasting the bar and everybody behind it big-time.

Here, the PCs didn't account for the mercs being suspicious types with an SOP for the bar, or being in Condition Orange, or having weapons ready in a way that didn't look ready, or being willing to shoot first and ask questions later. Meanwhile, the mercs saw the obvious fake and were ready for the state of mind of the sort of guy who'd stand out in the open to distract from an ambush. When the gears engaged, the mercs were out of the gate 1/10 of a second sooner, whereupon the noise and flash and confusion of being shot at suppressed the PCs for the second or so necessary to get dead. That's actually a lot more realistic than you might think!

What it comes down to is that if you never want to see that outcome – for the PCs to be out-guessed or run into somebody frostier than them and get shot, bad – then don't make surprise a dice roll. No ambush is airtight. There's always the small chance that your rabbit is a wolf, or that your "victim" is taking a calculated risk to lure you out. There's even a chance that you could make a noise or flinch in a way that gives away the game, and your target is wired and goes off faster than you expected. You can stack the deck by giving the PCs big bonuses for good planning, but if you roll, then you have to accept that they could lose horribly. If you're 100% sure that they couldn't lose, then don't roll in the first place; just go with the 1-2-6 method I outlined above.

[dgrm4]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Ok.

However there are a number of places where in the described scenario where the PC's could have blown the Ambush.

Now if the NPC's had seen them through the 2nd Story window and had not come through the front door but had done something else. Rear door, dive through windows, up the outside and start firefight from stairwell etc...would you still say that there would not be a way the Ambush could turn on the PC's? Just curious?

This creates the issue "When do you roll for the surprise". If you don't do it early enough then you may have to reverse time on the PCs. Also, the PCs have a tendency to change their minds as they setup the ambush so again...when do you make the surprise roll?

It seems to me that there could be a better way to implement this rule.

[dgrm4]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The presence of a front man who (incompetently) tries to bluff the target isn't typical.

I should also mention the bar was had a brothel upstairs and the PCs were disguised as female hookers.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by dgrm4

This creates the issue "When do you roll for the surprise". If you don't do it early enough then you may have to reverse time on the PCs. Also, the PCs have a tendency to change their minds as they setup the ambush so again...when do you make the surprise roll?

It seems to me that there could be a better way to implement this rule.

You just need to ratchet back your thoughts on encounter ranges.

Think of it this way: you probably need to think about some sort of contest of detection at a few places in any prospective encounter. Let's assume we're talking "bad guys" coming to play into a scenario centered around the "good guys," like you're describing.

1) REALLY long range. Can the bad guys reasonably detect/predict the event? Something that lets them clue into the fact that things are not as they're supposed to be? This might be a Quick Contest of (say) Intelligence Analysis vs Administration if there's a paper trail the bad guys are following. Or something as straight-forward as Perception vs Camouflage rolled at some crazy range to see if the bad guys can set up a sniper shot. Often you can just skip this entirely . . . but the PCs probably won't want to, and if your players are like MY players, they'll assume that whatever location they're heading to is naturally filled with rats, bad guys, and zombies Maybe bad guy zombie rats, even. With guns.

2) Not so stupidly long range. When they come into easy visual range of the location. Maybe it's a few blocks away, or when you can easily resolve doors and windows type of thing. Is anything out of the ordinary? Did a curtain twitch? Is an easy approach too hard, or a hard approach too easy? Do any of the NPCs have Danger Sense? This could be anything less than 400yds or so, but will often be of the "down the street," or "around the corner" level of resolution. Again, this might be a non issue . . . but are the "good guys" disrupting the normal operation of the building? The call-girl usually outside the street is tied up because the PCs needed her, um, outfit?

3) Immediate before encounter range. Any sort of character who lives by finding or causing trouble will not just waltz through a door unless he's DARN confident he knows what's on the other side. If you've seen Firefly, "The Counselor" sent a bodyguard through to check out Serenity to make sure all was clear. Top Honchos will do this anywhere from minutes to DAYS before a visit. They might even routinely clear out a building (by renting out every girl in your brothel, for example, for use or not) before they come. Certainly before they come in through a FRONT DOOR they'll want to check out the place. They might even do this subconsciously, but do it they will.

4) Immediately INSIDE encounter range. As soon as they can get a read over interior spatial dimensions (layout of room scream AMBUSH COMING!) and people (are the patrons nervously looking behind the bar, where the good guys are hiding? Is the good guy who's a barkeep a bit too ostentatious at keeping his hands below the table?) they will do so. Could be a QC of Body Language (though this is mostly 'detect lies,' Acting, Streetwise, or Tactics . . . all based on Perception vs. Acting or Tactics or something else on the other side). I might even make it a Regular Contest, where if they win, they see through any ruses, if they make their roll but don't win, they're alert but not tipped off, and if they lose they stroll in thinking all is right with the world.

5) Imminent Danger. Something is going to potentially tip them off when they're in Combat Time. Unless they're doing something else, they'll be looking at Evaluate and/or Wait maneuvers in turn if they're quality opposition. Someone might notice something.

Only after those gates are passed do the 'good guys' get to open up and blaze away on the unsuspecting schmoes.

Does that mean you have to go through all that EVERY TIME? Heck no. But you should think about the opposition, and how they might detect a threat, especially if they're looking for one.