5th Edition Control Check questions

[thudthwacker]

I'm entirely new to Car Wars, having just picked up a couple of 5th Edition books (Vindicator vs Dragon and Arena Book 1) a few days ago. I've been working my way through the rules trying to get a decent handle on gameplay (so I can better explain it to my 9 year old daughter, who is pretty excited about playing), and have come up against problems in a couple of very basic areas:

- If my car is hit by a weapon or collision, when exactly do I consult the Control Table? Immediately? Before my next movement phase? There's a question in the FAQ specifically about taking weapons damage, and the answer is that the Control Table is consulted before my next movement phase. Would the situation be the same if I took damage from someone colliding with me? And, more importantly, what if I don't *have* another movement phase this turn? When do I reset my car's Handling Status?

- In the rules printed in the Vindicator vs Dragon book, under Wheel Damage (pg 10), it says "A tire with one ore more blown tires has its HC reduced by 2. Handling status goes to -6, but a blown tire is never a *separate* hazard. Just assess the normal hazard for the amount of damage done to blow the tire." I ... honestly have no idea what that means. Do I check the Control Table based on the damage that blew the tire at the beginning of my next movement phase, *then* drop my HS to -6 for the rest of the phase? And, as before, what if this is the end of my turn? When do I reset my HS?

Abject apologies for any lack of clarity (or if these are simply stupid questions with obvious answers), and many thanks for any assistance rendered.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by thudthwacker

I'm entirely new to Car Wars, having just picked up a couple of 5th Edition books (Vindicator vs Dragon and Arena Book 1) a few days ago. I've been working my way through the rules trying to get a decent handle on gameplay (so I can better explain it to my 9 year old daughter, who is pretty excited about playing), and have come up against problems in a couple of very basic areas:

- If my car is hit by a weapon or collision, when exactly do I consult the Control Table? Immediately? Before my next movement phase? There's a question in the FAQ specifically about taking weapons damage, and the answer is that the Control Table is consulted before my next movement phase. Would the situation be the same if I took damage from someone colliding with me? And, more importantly, what if I don't *have* another movement phase this turn? When do I reset my car's Handling Status?

I can't answer with the authority of some of the folks here, but I always roll for control when damage is taken (which, I guess, contradicts the FAQ) at the current HS.

- In the rules printed in the Vindicator vs Dragon book, under Wheel Damage (pg 10), it says "A tire with one ore more blown tires has its HC reduced by 2. Handling status goes to -6, but a blown tire is never a *separate* hazard. Just assess the normal hazard for the amount of damage done to blow the tire." I ... honestly have no idea what that means. Do I check the Control Table based on the damage that blew the tire at the beginning of my next movement phase, *then* drop my HS to -6 for the rest of the phase? And, as before, what if this is the end of my turn? When do I reset my HS?

You check for control in this case at the same time you would check for control for the actual attack or collision (at the time you take the damage, in my house). The HS will be reset at the beginning of the next turn.

Actually, this is a good question. If you really check HS at the beginning of your next movement phase, then it's hard to see what you do when the next phase is in the next turn.

[Jeffr0]

We always play... that... if you take enemy fire and your handling status drops into a danger zone where you have to make a control roll, go ahead and roll to keep control.

Note that in all editions of CAR WARS... a failed control roll due to a hazard results in a fishtail. No forward movement is required to execute this "maneuver", so you can take care of these even when you are not executing your own movement. (In fact this is exactly why the fish table doesn't require forward movement.)

Are collisions more complicated? No. First resolve the collision according to those rules... then everyone takes a hazard just the same as if the ram damage was weapons fire. This is one of the cool things about 5th edition: the crash table points out that fishtails that result here are executed *away* from the collision. This makes sense and is a nice touch.

Even if you don't have any additional movement for the turn, your fishtail maneuvers and so forth are already executed, so that is not an issue.

Hope this helps!

(Will look a question #two later.)

[thudthwacker]

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

We always play... that... if you take enemy fire and your handling status drops into a danger zone where you have to make a control roll, go ahead and roll to keep control.

Note that in all editions of CAR WARS... a failed control roll due to a hazard results in a fishtail. No forward movement is required to execute this "maneuver", so you can take care of these even when you are not executing your own movement. (In fact this is exactly why the fish table doesn't require forward movement.)

Are collisions more complicated? No. First resolve the collision according to those rules... then everyone takes a hazard just the same as if the ram damage was weapons fire. This is one of the cool things about 5th edition: the crash table points out that fishtails that result here are executed *away* from the collision. This makes sense and is a nice touch.

Even if you don't have any additional movement for the turn, your fishtail maneuvers and so forth are already executed, so that is not an issue.

Hope this helps!

(Will look a question #two later.)

That was *incredibly* helpful, many thanks. That was the point I was missing; I didn't look at the Control Table, and didn't realize that a failed control check for a hazard always results in a fishtail.

[Jeffr0]

Hey, no problem.

If your opponent shoots out your tire... this is a big fat hazard... but still just a hazard. Execute a fishtail immediately if you fail the control roll and hope that you don't end up pointing towards a wall.

If this happens early on in the turn, then any time you take a hazard for the rest of the turn, you are rolling on the -6 column. If this happens at the end of the turn after all your movement is already done, then the Handling Status "reset" event occurs during the turn break... and you aren't bothered by this.

For tire shooters... the tactical decision then is... do you knock it out on Phase One just to fishtail your opponent to death...? Or do you wait until the end of the turn so that you have a better chance of hitting due to closer range...? (Or is the arena so small that you don't really have a choice?)

Note that the handling status reset rule does a lot of things. First off, HC 1 and HC 2 vehicles actually make sense. Second... if you only adjust the handling status back up a small amount each turn (as was done in Deluxe edition and onward) then even a small mistake in refereeing or executing the game can impact several turns of play. The rule requires "perfect accounting" to a certain extent. With the reset rule, if there is a mistake in tracking handling, it's probably going to affect just one control roll and maybe even not by much then. So, it's a great rule for casual play and minimizing referee OCD paranoia.

Edit: Note that, under old editions of CAR WARS, a really bad result on the Fish Tail table could result in a skid. How would you handle *that* you ask...? You execute the fishtail part immediately. On your next inch of movement, you'll skid straight ahead and possibly take tire damage if the skid was bad enough. (Hopefully nothing is right in front of you!!) Note that, depending on where the turn break occurs, side effects that affect your weapons fire "until the end of the turn" can affect you for several phases or none at all. (Some people house rule that to make it more fair, but... as with the partial handling status recovery... this costs a lot of record keeping that may or may not add all that much to the game.)

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

Note that the handling status reset rule does a lot of things. First off, HC 1 and HC 2 vehicles actually make sense. Second... if you only adjust the handling status back up a small amount each turn (as was done in Deluxe edition and onward) then even a small mistake in refereeing or executing the game can impact several turns of play. The rule requires "perfect accounting" to a certain extent. With the reset rule, if there is a mistake in tracking handling, it's probably going to affect just one control roll and maybe even not by much then. So, it's a great rule for casual play and minimizing referee OCD paranoia.

Whoa. I hadn't really read the HS rules closely in the Compendium. I didn't realize that you only get a bit of HS back per turn.

I like that rule, actually. The HS reset, which was part of my old game (2.0?) as well as the new version 5.0, never made a lot of sense to me.

I'm not sure what I think about the Compendium reflex rules. How do you like them? (Not to hijack the thread....)

[Jeffr0]

HS Reset was part of Steve Jackson's original design and remained in effect through 3rd edition pocket box. One problem with this rule is that people can pretty much do a D6 turn every single second. This is weird and doesn't feel right. Scott Haring put in the partial handling status reset with his Deluxe Edition revisions, if I recall correctly. (The awesome Doppleganger issue of ADQ should have designer's notes for that rules change.)

I personally like the reflex rolls. Earlburt and I used them for 30+ games... and considering that a lot of those duels were team events with continuing characters... it added a little more flavor to the game. (As we discovered with Amateur Night events, anything that created nuances and broke up symmetry was a good thingTM.)

However... for tournament play, people quit using the reflex roll rules very early on in AADA history. As far as that goes, that rules change under 5th edition simply ratified what most CAR WARS fanatics were already doing for years.

If you're a junky for these sort of microscopic rules changes, see here for more info on Drivers Skill and Handling. This page contains several more posts on other rules changes that might be interesting.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

However... for tournament play, people quit using the reflex roll rules very early on in AADA history. As far as that goes, that rules change under 5th edition simply ratified what most CAR WARS fanatics were already doing for years.

If you're a junky for these sort of microscopic rules changes, see here for more info on Drivers Skill and Handling. This page contains several more posts on other rules changes that might be interesting.

I'll be darned. Until I looked at your page (and then checked my pocket book, which was evidently published in 1983, judging from the copyright), I had forgotten the role of reflex in that edition.

I think it was kinda keen to have a single reflex roll determine who moves first when speeds are equal throughout the game, rather than rolling every time a tiebreaker is necessary. I sure didn't remember that feature (but it must've been two decades since I played that edition of Car Wars).

[thudthwacker]

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

Hey, no problem.

If your opponent shoots out your tire... this is a big fat hazard... but still just a hazard. Execute a fishtail immediately if you fail the control roll and hope that you don't end up pointing towards a wall.

If this happens early on in the turn, then any time you take a hazard for the rest of the turn, you are rolling on the -6 column. If this happens at the end of the turn after all your movement is already done, then the Handling Status "reset" event occurs during the turn break... and you aren't bothered by this.

Great; many thanks, again, for the clarification.

Originally Posted by Jeffr0

Note that the handling status reset rule does a lot of things. First off, HC 1 and HC 2 vehicles actually make sense. Second... if you only adjust the handling status back up a small amount each turn (as was done in Deluxe edition and onward) then even a small mistake in refereeing or executing the game can impact several turns of play. The rule requires "perfect accounting" to a certain extent. With the reset rule, if there is a mistake in tracking handling, it's probably going to affect just one control roll and maybe even not by much then. So, it's a great rule for casual play and minimizing referee OCD paranoia.

Interesting. I wouldn't think that doing a "partial" reset in place of a "full" reset would be that much more work. But, I guess if it's a large battle with a lot of vehicles, it's a lot harder to notice if you've goofed on a partial reset than a full reset. Still, the partial reset (at the end of the turn, HS of each vehicle goes up 3 or the vehicle's HC, whichever is higher) sounds like a house rule I'd like to play with a bit.

And final (I hope) collision-related question: in the Vindicator vs Dragon book, under Collisions, it mentions that collision damage is 1d per 10mph of the net speed of the collision, and that you determine the net speed of vehicles going in the same (or almost the same) direction by subtracting the lower speed from the higher one. Okay, clear enough -- if I sideswipe another car doing 50mph, and he's doing 30mph, the net speed is 20mph, so 2d of damage to each car. Then, under the Sideswipe section on the next page (where it's saying that speed/facing aren't affected by a sideswipe), it says that "both vehicles involved take only one hit per 10 mph".

So: which is it? 1d per 10mph, or 1 hit per 10mph? I could see it being 1 hit if it were, say, 15 degrees or less, but it doesn't say that.

Also: if speed and facing don't change, doesn't that mean that I'm going to hit the other car again immediately? eg: If I'm going 50mph and, 1" into my Movement, and I hit another car at just under 30 degrees. Nobody's speed or direction changes, and I've got 4" of movement left. Unless I lose control and fishtail, doesn't that mean I'll hit the other car again immediately?

[thudthwacker]

Whoops, I told a lie -- two last control check questions:

If I lose control badly enough during a deceleration to go into a skid or spin, do I do the required movement immediately or at the start of my first movement phase?

It seems that straight movement isn't considered to be a maneuver -- am I correct in my assumption that, even if your car's HS is below 0, you don't need to make a control check to go straight?