Grappling a limb and then attacking it

[Grouchy Chris]

In the last session of my game, one of the PCs, a reptile man, grappled an opponent's arm and then attacked that same arm with a bite in the next turn. Are there any rules on bonuses for attacking a limb that you already have grappled? It seems to me like there ought to be, but I don't see anything like that in the Basic Set or Martial Arts.

If there aren't any existing rules, what would you do in this situation? Does it seem reasonable to apply a bonus to hit for a subsequent attack on a grappled limb? Does it make a difference what you're attacking with? What about attacking a weapon held in a grappled limb?

[Maz]

Martial Arts p.115 have rules fror "grappling with your teeth".

This includes such thing as a lizardman making a bite attack that automatically grabs at the same time and then rules for dealing damage by 'worrying' next turn.

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by Maz

Martial Arts p.115 have rules fror "grappling with your teeth".

This includes such thing as a lizardman making a bite attack that automatically grabs at the same time and then rules for dealing damage by 'worrying' next turn.

Yes, but that's not the situation I'm asking about. Let me restate it.

Let's call this reptile man Q. On his first turn, Q makes a successful one-handed grappled against his opponent's right arm. On his second turn, Q wishes to bite his opponent on the arm. It seems reasonable to me (not that I know anything about fighting) that when you've grappled a limb, you have some control over that limb, and so an attack on it ought to be easier than if you hadn't grappled it. Whether Q wants this attack to be another grapple or not is a secondary issue. Whether that attack is a bite or a punch or whatever is a secondary issue.

So, are there any rules to give Q a bonus to hit in this situation? If not, what kind of bonus, if any, do you think would be reasonable?

[Mailanka]

Martial Arts has a section on Grab and Smash, though that's more pertinent to, say, grabbing some guy's arm and then hammering his elbow (ow!) than it is to grabbing and biting (I think, depends on whether biting counts as a "thrusting attack").

However, the core book deals well enough with your problem.

Hit Location: The rules above
assume that you are grappling the
torso. To grab another body part,
apply half the penalty given under Hit
Location (p. 398) to your roll; see
Grappling and Hit Location, p. 400. If
you hit, your foe has -4 to DX only
when using that body part

This makes sense, if you think about it. Grabbing an arm and biting it isn't any easier or harder than biting an arm that your opponent simply holds steady. That is, what makes biting someone's arm difficult is that they keep moving it around (ie, making their active defense). Grabbing it first makes this more difficult. The -4 to DX effectively means your target has -2 to parry (with that arm, and possibly a -1 to dodge, though I'm not sure how one "dodges with an arm" of if I'd even let them "dodge" such an attack). They can still try to parry with their OTHER arm, so I recommend grabbing their primary arm (ie their right one, generally) so that when they try to parry with their other arm, they have a similar penalty.

Anyway, between the fact that you've grappled the arm they were trying to beat you with and they'll have a hard time defending it, you have several options available to you, like making AoAs or committed attacks, gambling on the fact that they can't really counter attack properly, and possibly exploiting the fact that they'll have a hard time defending.

[Kromm]

A grappled fighter has -2 to Block or Parry, -1 to Dodge, and can't retreat (so he loses the +1 or +3 from that) . . . and should he want the +2 from Acrobatic Dodge, he can't have that, either. All that's from Martial Arts, p. 121. So just do a Telegraphic Attack (p. 113) for +4 to hit. It'll give the target +2 to defend, but because of the above considerations, he'll end up at no advantage and you'll end up at +4 to hit. In effect, your grapple sets him up for an easier shot. If you have the Neck Control perk (p. 50), you can get another +1 to hit in some situations.

[Streacer]

I would lean towards make it into a quick contest, or if you really want to treat it as a "new attack" (rather than a "grappling supplement") then don't give a bonus to the attack roll, but instead give penalties to active defense. (The character could still turn this into an attack bonus if they need it, i.e. Telegraphic Attack.)

Otherwise, renaming Wrench Limb to Bite Limb or Attack Limb (knife) and changing the numbers seems easy.

[Kromm]

Once you've grabbed a body part, grappling follow-ups are indeed treated as Quick Contests in most cases, offering no defense, just resistance. All that stands between your foe and a mangling is his body's toughness and flexibility. In some cases he doesn't even get that deal . . . worrying after using teeth to grapple is a straight damage roll!

Striking follow-ups to grapples are treated as attacks that allow defenses because they're far more sudden and focused. It should be possible for the blow to go off-target, and even to hit the attacker if he really screws up; the classic example is the downward stab to a captured arm that misses and pierces the attacker's thigh. The attack/defense mechanic is far better for this. You still get a big bonus, though!

• You would normally attack at skill, but instead you can risk Telegraphic Attack at skill+4.
  
• Your foe would normally . . .
  
  • . . . parry or block with a retreat at +1 to get out of close combat, but must now do so at +2 for Telegraphic Attack but -2 for the grapple, for a net 0, which means an effective defense penalty of -1.
    
  • . . . dodge with a retreat at +3 to get out of close combat, but must now dodge at +2 for Telegraphic Attack but -1 for the grapple, for a net +1, which means an effective defense penalty of -2.
    
  • . . . use a skill that allows a parry with a retreat at +3 to get out of close combat, but must now parry at +2 for Telegraphic Attack but -2 for the grapple, for a net 0, which means an effective defense penalty of -3.

In effect, you end up with a basic +4 to hit, and inflict from -1 to -3 to defend, which is like getting another +2 to +6 to skill converted to a Deceptive Attack. All told, it's almost as sure a bet as a grappling follow-up, but there's some risk.

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Grabbing an arm and biting it isn't any easier or harder than biting an arm that your opponent simply holds steady. That is, what makes biting someone's arm difficult is that they keep moving it around (ie, making their active defense).

This is part of what I was missing, so thank you.

Originally Posted by Kromm

So just do a Telegraphic Attack (p. 113) for +4 to hit. It'll give the target +2 to defend, but because of the above considerations, he'll end up at no advantage and you'll end up at +4 to hit. In effect, your grapple sets him up for an easier shot.

Thanks, I think that about covers my concerns. One more thing, however:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Once you've grabbed a body part, grappling follow-ups are indeed treated as Quick Contests in most cases, offering no defense, just resistance. All that stands between your foe and a mangling is his body's toughness and flexibility. In some cases he doesn't even get that deal . . . worrying after using teeth to grapple is a straight damage roll!

Striking follow-ups to grapples are treated as attacks that allow defenses because they're far more sudden and focused.

A bite would count as a striking attack, even if the attacker intends to continue the bite into a grapple, correct?

[RobKamm]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

A bite would count as a striking attack, even if the attacker intends to continue the bite into a grapple, correct?

As I understand it, if the grapple is made with the mouth, the "bite" follow-up is worrying -- it's a straight damage roll. No defense except to break free of the grapple. If the grapple were made with another body part (hands, legs, tail, etc) then a bite would be a separate attack requiring an attack roll and could be defended against.

[Fwibos]

Basically, do this:

resolve a Grapple as normal
Next attack (this turn or extra attack) CHOMP AWAY LIKE A KROMM!*
*Which is to say, resolve the bite as Kromm as suggested.**
Then resolve the follow up free grapple provided by the bite.

While tactically unsound, it might not hurt to use AoA (Double) to do this i one turn.


**Sugar, I swear. It's only Cadbury Eggs.