Fire arms and cheat!

[antee]

Hello! I've played with my mates and we faced this situation:

One player has the fire arms and Sledgehammer of smackdown (req 2 hands) on the cheat... so he should get +5 from sledgehammer and +6 from arms... or just +5, because sledge requires 2 hands and he has no free hands to power up fire arms?

The main argument for only +5:
cheat doesnt change item, it's only allows to use it against rules... so sledge occupies both hands and u cant get bonuses from arms...

And question 2: if i play fire arms with cheat, would i get +6?

[Eben]

If he cheated the hammer, he can say its not using up any hands and he get's the bonus from both the hammer and the firearms. The hammer is just floating next to him.

[antee]

Originally Posted by Eben

If he cheated the hammer, he can say its not using up any hands and he get's the bonus from both the hammer and the firearms. The hammer is just floating next to him.

but in this case, if u have helm on cheat and u are hitting by curse u can say, that helm is not a helm indeed... it's just float besides u...

and there is a sentence in faq:
Q. If my only small Item has a Cheat! card on it, and I get Cursed to lose a small Item, can I say that the cheated Item doesn't count as "small" for the purposes of the Curse?
A. Nice try, but no. Cheat! doesn't take away the Item's properties, it just makes the Item usable for you when it otherwise would not be.

[StaticHamster]

Cheat allows you to use an item that you normally wouldn't

What that sentence means is that when you cheat the item it does not change the fact that the item is a two handed item but it also mean that it doesn't take up your hands slot.

This means that if you were able to Cheat the Hammer then the Fire Arms gives you its full bonus. You get both the +5 from the Hammer and the +6 from the Fire Arms.

You would never be able to use Cheat on Firearms. In order to use this card the item that you are using with it must currently be illegal for you to use. If it isn't, you can't Cheat it. Firearms may not provide the most optimal bonus when your hands are full but it is still a legal play to have it in front of you.

[Andrew Hackard]

Welcome to the forums, antee!

A Cheated item does not take up any slots, but that doesn't change its fundamental nature. A Cheated Sledgehammer is still a "2 Hands" weapon; it just currently doesn't take any Hands to use. If you were hit with an effect that forced you to discard your 2 Hands items, you would have to ditch the Sledgehammer. However, because it doesn't take any Hands to use, you can get the full benefit of "empty Hands" when using the Fire Arms (as long as you aren't using anything else in your Hands, of course).

Please let me know if this explanation isn't clear.

[MunchkinMan]

However, we state that you can't Cheat! an Item you can currently use (i.e., you can't play Cheat! on an Item of Headgear which has no restrictions and you have no other Headgear in play that you're trying to use), and Fire Arms doesn't take up hands, just gives a bonus per empty hand. Based on our previous rulings, he could not cheat the 2 Hand Item just because he wanted to use Fire Arms.

[thedag]

Originally Posted by antee

but in this case, if u have helm on cheat and u are hitting by curse u can say, that helm is not a helm indeed... it's just float besides u...

and there is a sentence in faq:
Q. If my only small Item has a Cheat! card on it, and I get Cursed to lose a small Item, can I say that the cheated Item doesn't count as "small" for the purposes of the Curse?
A. Nice try, but no. Cheat! doesn't take away the Item's properties, it just makes the Item usable for you when it otherwise would not be.

The bolded part is only true if you have an older set. As of the 19th edition you can put the cheat on an item you can already use according to the FAQ. It does ask why you would want to however. (better putting it on an item you can already use than giving charity imo)

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

However, we state that you can't Cheat! an Item you can currently use

The revised wording on the Cheat! card removes that restriction (although it wasn't MEANT to -- cranial flatulence on my part), and Steve and I decided to roll with it. So you *can* Cheat an Item that you can legally use, if you want. But there's still no reason to Cheat Fire Arms, since it doesn't take any slots and doesn't have any restrictions on its use.

[antee]

Thanks to everyone! FAQ confused me=(

[Kirt]

Originally Posted by thedag

As of the 19th edition you can put the cheat on an item you can already use according to the FAQ. It does ask why you would want to however. (better putting it on an item you can already use than giving charity imo)

If I understand Andrew correctly, there is now a big reason to put a cheat on an item you can use, since it lets you get the max bonus from Fire Arms.

It USED to be the only way you could have both a weapon and Fire Arms providing bonuses was to have a weapon that used slots, Cheat! another (otherwise illegal) weapon, get rid of the first weapon (sell, trade, or legal discard), and then play Fire Arms. You could NOT just cheat the weapon if it was legal to play it, whether or not you had Fire Arms already out.

If you are indeed NOW allowed to cheat an item you can legally use, it makes the Cheated Weapon-Fire Arms combo much easier to achieve, since you can Cheat the legal weapon either before or after Fire Arms comes out and not have to involve a second (or more) weapon(s).


This ruling also makes placing Big Items more flexible. Before, if you had one big item out, you could only put a second one out by laying it simultaneously with the cheat, which meant only the second item out could be cheated. NOW, you could Cheat the first Big item out before laying the second, so you have more power to control which Item you will be Cheating.