Maximum skill level by TL

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

What you are describing is Reputation, not competence.

Nope, Reputation would be the better way to stat it, that I hinted at. It is masterful competence which does have side effects, just like Broadswod 25 will make people react differently to you when you show off.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

[...] because I see no point in letting someone have a skill of 25 if I am only going to treat them as if they had skill 13.

Agreed. But unless your players are total anti-munchkins, this should never be a problem when you tell them that they will waste their points.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Please note that the Basic Rules place (or suggest) limits on skill levels - I just think they should vary by TL.

Well, TL isn't intrinsically linked to prosperity or whatever else might be needed to obtain good education. I can definitely see a monk in TL/3 studying a single skill like Herbology from all the strange and completely wrong books in the world until he reaches skill 20.

And about Religious Ritual ... I meant Theology. Which essentially has a "TL" which tends to be raised with every major miracle or whatever, if those exist in your world. Assuming the Christian religion to be the right and true one, two B.C.-Theologists could argue endlessly about interpretations of old testament parts until the prophet comes around and tells them that most of that info is outdated. (Yeah, not the best example ... just ignore it, if you want.)

Regards
Ts

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ts_

Nope, Reputation would be the better way to stat it, that I hinted at. It is masterful competence which does have side effects, just like Broadswod 25 will make people react differently to you when you show off.

Only because the swordsman is successful at his task!! If the doctor cannot do any better than leeches and "demon spirits" he is not going to demonstrate masterful competence!

Originally Posted by Ts_

Agreed. But unless your players are total anti-munchkins, this should never be a problem when you tell them that they will waste their points.

I also want to benchmark NPC's, so that I can quickly determine what they find when they go looking for help.

Originally Posted by Ts_

Well, TL isn't intrinsically linked to prosperity or whatever else might be needed to obtain good education. I can definitely see a monk in TL/3 studying a single skill like Herbology from all the strange and completely wrong books in the world until he reaches skill 20.

Sure, but it will take him a lot longer, and after a while he will have to research new herbs because he will have read all the books written until that time! This is kind of my point - you can learn a skill up to a certain point but then after that resources dry up, and advancing beyond that point becomes very very slow...

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

For example, take Diagnosis/TL - at TL3, the sheer limitations on available knowledge means that even someone with a skill of 25 is going to draw a blank or else grab the leeches and cow dung. Even at TL8 there are significant limits on what we can diagnose, so it seems that there should be a "maximum effective skill level" for many technological skills.

Your example is problematical. Diagnosis doesn't tell you how to treat a sickness or injury; it just tells you what the sickness or injury is. So no matter what your TL in the skill, a success lets you identify the sickness or injury as far as the TL understands it. Given a patient experiencing seizures, a Diagnosis/TL3 roll may reveal that these symptoms typically mean the patient has been possessed by a demon; a Diagnosis/TL8 roll may reveal that the seizures are caused by meningitis. Both answers are correct answers in the respective cultures; that doesn't mean either culture's medical knowledge is right. The diagnosis-maker simply applied their training in Diagnosis correctly.

Physician, meanwhile, is the skill for treating the sick and the injured, and it doesn't even exist below TL4 most of the time. If it does—say, in a scientifically minded but technologically primitive culture—it's still the skill of treatment, not the skill of restoring hit points. If the culture's medical knowledge is wrong about the diagnosis or the treatment, the physician can treat the sickness or injury successfully, but not actually heal the patient.

Skills aren't about effects; they're about your ability to apply training. Thus Low TL doesn't affect maximum skill level. If the low TL prevents or limits certain effects, this should be applied to the effect itself, not the skill roll's chances. For instance, the natural healing table in Campaigns depends on TL, but the chances of a healing roll succeeding depend on the healer's skill, not TL.

Please note that this does not apply to ALL technological skills, just those where the skill attempts to answer absolute right/wrong questions. Engineering (Combat)/TL3 25 means that the character can make fantastic castles even though reinforced concrete is beyond them, and Boating (Unpowered)/TL1 21 produces a master of the dugout canoe

If the combat engineer can design TL4 castles in a TL3 culture, then he has Engineering (Combat)/TL4. If a TL8 outdoorsman can use a TL1 canoe and its accessories, he has Boating (Unpowered)/TL1. The only adjustment to skill necessary is the one for unfamiliar tech level.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Your example is problematical. Diagnosis doesn't tell you how to treat a sickness or injury; it just tells you what the sickness or injury is. So no matter what your TL in the skill, a success lets you identify the sickness or injury as far as the TL understands it. Given a patient experiencing seizures, a Diagnosis/TL3 roll may reveal that these symptoms typically mean the patient has been possessed by a demon; a Diagnosis/TL8 roll may reveal that the seizures are caused by meningitis. Both answers are correct answers in the respective cultures; that doesn't mean either culture's medical knowledge is right. The diagnosis-maker simply applied their training in Diagnosis correctly.

I specifically want to avoid the situation where two players could both roll equal successes on the same skill in the same circumstances but have one right and the other be wrong. In the case you cite, the TL3 healer has effectively succeeded in Occultism, not Diagnosis.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Skills aren't about effects; they're about your ability to apply training. Thus Low TL doesn't affect maximum skill level. If the low TL prevents or limits certain effects, this should be applied to the effect itself, not the skill roll's chances. For instance, the natural healing table in Campaigns depends on TL, but the chances of a healing roll succeeding depend on the healer's skill, not TL.

Yes, but the vast majority of "applying training" in the game results in simple success or failure - these skills don't. If I make an engineer roll, I have succeeded in designing my structure and it will work, but if I make a physician (or chemistry, or physics...) roll I will have succeeded and yet failed.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I specifically want to avoid the situation where two players could both roll equal successes on the same skill in the same circumstances but have one right and the other be wrong.

But Skill/TL X and Skill/TL Y are essentially different skills, just like specialities create new skills. There will always be better and worse skills for solving a specific situation. More TL is in general better and Low TL is a disadvantage for a reason.

Just say: "Sorry, that guy from the future seems to be more effective at medicine than you are. However, you both would have gotten the exact same mark on your respective final exams, so don't feel bad about your performance."

Regards
Ts

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Ts_

But Skill/TL X and Skill/TL Y are essentially different skills, just like specialities create new skills. There will always be better and worse skills for solving a specific situation. More TL is in general better and Low TL is a disadvantage for a reason.

Just say: "Sorry, that guy from the future seems to be more effective at medicine than you are. However, you both would have gotten the exact same mark on your respective final exams, so don't feel bad about your performance."

Regards
Ts

But then the numbers are just decorative... I am looking for a more applicable, less hand-wavy (or at least more consistent) rule.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

But then the numbers are just decorative... I am looking for a more applicable, less hand-wavy (or at least more consistent) rule.

Some skills are harder and still worse than others. The low-TL skills are as hard as the high-TL ones, but are worse in effect. This is a clear sign for players not to spend too much points in them if the better one is available as well. Problem solved, no rule needed. If your TL is the best TL, then you can spend points, but it would still make sense to look up the skill description to see what you're buying and maybe talk to the GM about such things as Reputation instead.

This isn't even hand-wavy. It's playing by RAW and historical info that makes these skills ineffective. The same holds true for equipment, that becomes cheaper and better all the time.

Regards
Ts

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

But then the numbers are just decorative... I am looking for a more applicable, less hand-wavy (or at least more consistent) rule.

Its probably not possible to do anything that works well in a general sense for all TL skills. For specific skills, well, you need to detailed handling of the skills to address them. For lots of skills, the relevant GURPS "Tech" (Low/High/Ultra/Bio) books discuss what the skill can and can't do at various tech levels and with/without particular equipment.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

In the case you cite, the TL3 healer has effectively succeeded in Occultism, not Diagnosis.

In cultures where "possessed by a demon" can be a legitimate reason for seizures, it is also perfectly reasonable for it to be the result of a Diagnosis roll. What's the medical reason for the seizures? Demonic possession.

You might also let an Occultism roll identify cases where seizures are the result of demonic possession. Skills often overlap.

Yes, but the vast majority of "applying training" in the game results in simple success or failure - these skills don't.

Yes they do. Skills result in success or failure of the application of that skill—not in the rightness or wrongness of the result. If there is no such thing as the supernatural in your world, then skills like Occultism or Fortune-Telling will yield "wrong" results, even if the rolls succeed.

So for technological skills, success rolls are limited by skill level, and results are limited by technology and knowledge. Your proposed limit is already built into the system.

If I make an engineer roll, I have succeeded in designing my structure and it will work,

But the only structures you can design that will work are those limited by your TL and your reality. If you're a TL4 engineer, you can't design a working structure made out of plastic, because you don't know what the properties of plastic are. Even if you can guess, you're going to have a −15 penalty or so to reproduce a TL7 structure.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

In cultures where "possessed by a demon" can be a legitimate reason for seizures, it is also perfectly reasonable for it to be the result of a Diagnosis roll. What's the medical reason for the seizures? Demonic possession.

You might also let an Occultism roll identify cases where seizures are the result of demonic possession. Skills often overlap.

Sure, but this is a different issue.

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Yes they do. Skills result in success or failure of the application of that skill—not in the rightness or wrongness of the result. If there is no such thing as the supernatural in your world, then skills like Occultism or Fortune-Telling will yield "wrong" results, even if the rolls succeed.

But those skills are not "right or wrong" skills - Occultism is the knowledge of myth, and Fortune Telling is a performance art. I cannot imagine any scenario for either skill where a sucessful roll would be unreasonable!

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

So for technological skills, success rolls are limited by skill level, and results are limited by technology [i]and knowledge[i/]. Your proposed limit is already built into the system.

Not really - chance of success should be tied to degree of accurate knowledge, which in turn is a function of TL. So how is this in the system?



But the only structures you can design that will work are those limited by your TL and your reality. If you're a TL4 engineer, you can't design a working structure made out of plastic, because you don't know what the properties of plastic are. Even if you can guess, you're going to have a −15 penalty or so to reproduce a TL7 structure.[/QUOTE]