Short Swords vs Long Knives

[the_seeker]

Fortunately, the Official GURPS FAQ had an entry for precisely this topic.
Unfortunately, that entry wasn't very helpful to me even though I have Martial Arts.
I am therefore appealing to the Hive Mind for assistance dealing with my issue.

Martial Arts defines a shortsword as "a one-handed cut-and-thrust sword between 18 and 24 inches long" (p223), and I interpret that to mean 4 to 6 inches of hilt and 14 to 20 inches of blade (it's a useful enough approximation for my purposes).

Martial Arts defines a knife as "any one-handed blade smaller than a sword, built for effective cutting and stabbing." It further defines a long knife as "[the] largest [knife] — at a total length between 15 and 23 inches... only marginally less substantial than a shortsword."

From this, all I know is:
1) The shortest long knife is only 3 inches shorter than the shortest shortsword.
2) The longest long knife is only 1 inch shorter than the longest shortsword.
3) Effectively equal in average size, the difference between them must lie in mass.

The Melee Weapons Table (Basic Set: Characters p273) lists a shortsword as a Reach 1 weapon (Sw/Cut or Thr/Imp) weighing 2 pounds (Min ST 8). The Melee Weapons Table (Martial Arts p228) lists a long knife as a Reach C/1 weapon (Sw-1/Cut or Thr/Imp) weighing 1.5 pounds (Min ST 7). Assuming those are average weights representing a continuum between the largest and smallest examples of their kind, the difference in mass between long knives and shortswords seems to be half a pound.

Seriously?

(3+1) /2 = 2 inches in length and half a pound in mass? That's all?

Defaulting from Shortsword to Knife, 2 inches and half a pound mean -3 to Skill and -1 to Swing Damage but +C to Reach. Defaulting from Knife to Shortsword, 2 inches and half a pound mean +1 to Swing Damage but -C to Reach and -4 to Skill. Someone— preferably several someones — please explain to me why such an apparently small difference between a "long knife" and a "short sword" makes such a significant difference in GURPS. How would a fighter wielding a 20-inch "long knife" with Knife Skill fight differently from an identical fighter wielding a 20-inch "short sword" with Shortsword Skill?

My mind, it is boggled. <laugh>

[Crakkerjakk]

Low Tech adds a further +1 to thrusting damage for the short sword. And I've long held the opinion that weapon defaults are too harsh.

The swing damage is due to lying on a break-point, much like the difference between the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP in GURPS. Thrust, well, short swords (with the gladius as the primary example) are specifically designed to be better at that, IMO. I can't really justify the C for long knives but not for short swords, though. It might be another break-point.

[the_seeker]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Low Tech adds a further +1 to thrusting damage for the short sword.

Low-Tech is definitely at the top of my holiday shopping list, but I'm not so sure acquiring it will dispel my confusion. <laugh> I once owned a Cold Steel Trailmaster Bowie Knife, and I was amazed by the length and heft of the thing. I thought of it as a "baby sword" and wondered what it would be when it grew up. I regret a roomie I trusted proved unworthy of that trust because he stole my knife and used it to pay off a debt. :(

[Danukian]

The same problem occurs when you think about the difference between Fast Draw: Knife and Short Sword

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Danukian

The same problem occurs when you think about the difference between Fast Draw: Knife and Short Sword

Well, it is FD(Knife) and FD(Sword) rather than FD(Short Sword).

But still, you're right. I made FD a weapon skill-specific technique in my games. Along with reduced defaults, if you bought your FD(Short Sword) up to Short Sword, that means you can use the same technique at only -2 on a knife.

[the_seeker]

This became an issue for me when I created a knife-fighting style [1]. The trademark of the style is Dual-Weapon Attack (Knife), and stylists always fight with a matched pair of very large knives. Imagine a design halfway between the Bowie Knife of US frontier legend and the famous Gurkha Kukri. Blade length is 12 to 18 inches with 15 inches being standard. That's definitely within the "long knife" parameters, but they seem light at only a pound and a half each. I can find (and have held) real life analogues, and they were much heavier than that (twice or more in some cases).

[1] A completely fictional cinematic style inspired by the Arimite Knife-Fighters from Talislanta, the Gurkhas and US frontier legends. I'm no martial artist, and I suspect the style would be problematic at best in actual combat.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by the_seeker

This became an issue for me when I created a knife-fighting style [1]. The trademark of the style is Dual-Weapon Attack (Knife), and stylists always fight with a matched pair of very large knives. Imagine a design halfway between the Bowie Knife of US frontier legend and the famous Gurkha Kukri. Blade length is 12 to 18 inches with 15 inches being standard. That's definitely within the "long knife" parameters, but they seem light at only a pound and a half each. I can find (and have held) real life analogues, and they were much heavier than that (twice or more in some cases).

[1] A completely fictional cinematic style inspired by the Arimite Knife-Fighters from Talislanta, the Gurkhas and US frontier legends. I'm no martial artist, and I suspect the style would be problematic at best in actual combat.

Those are Falchions.

The problem with falchions is that they assume that the point is hardly sharpened. Some designs from other cultures, however, while they are balanced for chopping in the same way as the falchion, also have very servicable points.

In my games, I have the falchion option adding +1 to cut damage and subtracting -1* from imp damage.

*Rather than the -2 that the books have it.

[Purple Haze]

Originally Posted by the_seeker

This became an issue for me when I created a knife-fighting style [1]. The trademark of the style is Dual-Weapon Attack (Knife), and stylists always fight with a matched pair of very large knives. Imagine a design halfway between the Bowie Knife of US frontier legend and the famous Gurkha Kukri. Blade length is 12 to 18 inches with 15 inches being standard. That's definitely within the "long knife" parameters, but they seem light at only a pound and a half each. I can find (and have held) real life analogues, and they were much heavier than that (twice or more in some cases).

A kukri is really a hatchet/small axe in weight and function. It has a heavy powerful chopping attack rather than a slash or thrust.

A bowies knife is all slash and thrust.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by the_seeker

This became an issue for me when I created a knife-fighting style [1]. The trademark of the style is Dual-Weapon Attack (Knife), and stylists always fight with a matched pair of very large knives. Imagine a design halfway between the Bowie Knife of US frontier legend and the famous Gurkha Kukri. Blade length is 12 to 18 inches with 15 inches being standard. That's definitely within the "long knife" parameters, but they seem light at only a pound and a half each. I can find (and have held) real life analogues, and they were much heavier than that (twice or more in some cases).

[1] A completely fictional cinematic style inspired by the Arimite Knife-Fighters from Talislanta, the Gurkhas and US frontier legends. I'm no martial artist, and I suspect the style would be problematic at best in actual combat.

FYI, Escrima would be a good base for this. Most of the training is with batons, but originally they were machetes.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by the_seeker

Defaulting from Shortsword to Knife, 2 inches and half a pound mean -3 to Skill and -1 to Swing Damage but +C to Reach. Defaulting from Knife to Shortsword, 2 inches and half a pound mean +1 to Swing Damage but -C to Reach and -4 to Skill. Someone[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]— preferably several someones [FONT=&quot][FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]— please explain to me why such an apparently small difference between a "long knife" and a "short sword" makes such a significant difference in GURPS. How would a fighter wielding a 20-inch "long knife" with Knife Skill fight differently from an identical fighter wielding a 20-inch "short sword" with Shortsword Skill?

Fortunately, you can use Long Knife with either Knife or Short Sword skill, so the default issue is somewhat ameliorated.

But, yes, weapon defaults are probably too harsh and many of them should probably boil down to familiarities.