Dungeon Fantasy--TL8!?!

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Because that makes them high point characters, doesn't it? Which, for a lot of the people arguing that playing incompetents is somehow better, defeats the point.

I thought the goal is "ordinary people" not "incompetents".

[PK]

Originally Posted by Icelander

When 'normal' people are caught in a life-threathening situation, most react inappropriately and either die or have to get rescued. [...] This is compounded when there is not only one dangerous event, but many.

QFT. If you just want to run a one-shot adventure where a bunch of normal folk survive (or don't!) a monster attack -- something like GURPS From Dusk Till Dawn -- then yeah, normal folk are just fine.

But it's really hard to drag "normal folk" through a game about actively going after monsters. First off, if they're really just plain folks, they're going to die. A lot. Second, normal folks might survive a monster attack, but why would they then go back and hunt the monsters? That's just suicidal -- and you can gloss over that at first, but eventually there will come a point where the players say, "We're in over our heads. Let's call the police so we have some backup." (And I'm not talking about being stupid enough to tell the cops there are demons in the warehouse. You call and tell them there are drug dealers. That gets 'em over pretty quickly.) And there's nothing wrong with that! Who's better to deal with a group of rogue demons: The four guys who like to hang out in graveyards together, or a trained and armed SWAT team?

To justify this, you've got to make the PCs better at handling supernatural bad guys than the cops are. That's doable -- it's even doable on a relatively low budget, if you emphasize certain skills (e.g., Exorcism, Hidden Lore, Occultism) and don't let most NPCs learn them. But at that point, you've moved away from "normal folks."

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I thought the goal is "ordinary people" not "incompetents".

Ordinary people are extremely incompetent at dealing with life-threathening events. The skills and abilities needed for that are rare (thus not ordinary) and expensive in game terms.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Ordinary people are extremely incompetent at dealing with life-threathening events. The skills and abilities needed for that are rare (thus not ordinary) and expensive in game terms.

If you give them all Luck and Serendipity for free, then they are now the statistical anomaly that you were talking about.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

To justify this, you've got to make the PCs better at handling supernatural bad guys than the cops are. That's doable -- it's even doable on a relatively low budget, if you emphasize certain skills (e.g., Exorcism, Hidden Lore, Occultism) and don't let most NPCs learn them. But at that point, you've moved away from "normal folks."

That's a Key point about the Dresden Files. Dresden gives Murphy all the help he can to give Special Division the best edge he can against the lesser things that go bump in the night. But goes his absolute best to keep them out of the rest because not enough of them have Hidden Lore to evoke what the supernatural fear about normals, as a result it would just get those few killed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you give them all Luck and Serendipity for free, then they are now the statistical anomaly that you were talking about.

If we give enough, sure.

Though even if you get three tries, rolling below 3, 4 or 5 is not all that likely and that's the default a lot of normal people have for improvised melee weapons, for example. So trying to kill even one angry goblin with a knife while wielding improvised weapons is not exactly likely, even with scads of Luck.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If we give enough, sure.

Though even if you get three tries, rolling below 3, 4 or 5 is not all that likely and that's the default a lot of normal people have for improvised melee weapons, for example. So trying to kill even one angry goblin with a knife while wielding improvised weapons is not exactly likely, even with scads of Luck.

Cinematic Luck probably can use Wild Talent, too.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Cinematic Luck probably can use Wild Talent, too.

The point is, by the time you've given them all the traits they need to reasonably survive a single monster, let alone go hunting monsters, they're no longer low-point characters. Icelander noted in his first post in this thread that you can have skilled individuals or normal folks with so much plot protection that they're about the same point totals as the skilled individuals. But then they're not normal folks anymore. They're protagonists.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

The point is, by the time you've given them all the traits they need to reasonably survive a single monster, let alone go hunting monsters, they're no longer low-point characters. Icelander noted in his first post in this thread that you can have skilled individuals or normal folks with so much plot protection that they're about the same point totals as the skilled individuals. But then they're not normal folks anymore. They're protagonists.

Exactly. Consider my earlier suggestion, of using GURPS Action templates + heavy lenses to represent "nifty stuff that lets me survive when fighting the supernatural." There's no reason one of those 100- or 150-point lenses couldn't be Lucky Protagonist, with a bunch of Luck, Serendipity, and Wild Talent.

Taking it back to DF, look at the Seventh Son template that aesir23 and I bashed out. As the notes say, this is one way you can feel like you're playing an underdog without actually sacrificing competency. He's missing some of the skills a delver takes for granted, and isn't all that well trained in general -- but his solid attributes and tons of luck-related advantages allow him to hold his own anyway. So, he feels more like "normal peasant folk," but he's still a 250-point adventurer.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by Stone Dog

There is also a setting riff over on RPGnet called "The Long Stair."

Check it out for some particularly odd ideas.

Wow. This is cool. This makes me want to run it...