GURPS Shadowrun

[Godogma]

*shrug* I find it breaks my suspension of disbelief to have someone decking at the speed of thought, controlling his meat bod and ALSO effectively attacking cyberware (or what in SR is cyberware - namely shielded electronics like Smartgun circuitry) with his brain/cyberdeck.

Can you say massive multiaction penalties? Sure, *IF* I were to allow it thats the least of the decker's worries along with the prohibitive skill levels necessary.

On the topic of electromagnetics/wireless and health; here's the highly sensationalized Fox News version (it mostly focuses on what the Hippies are saying/doing about it) - which doesn't include any of the links to the doctor's that were worried about the effects of high yield electromagnetics on Health that the original article I read had in it. But its the only one I've found as of yet - the other one may have already been removed though I'm still trolling for it.

This http://ec.europa.eu/health/archive/p...rochure_en.pdf is a pdf where European doctors for the EU are doing tests to see the effects of electromagnetic fields on health, which is one of the crunchier links that I was able to find that directly relates to the issue.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475206,00.html

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

More important than whether it's feasible or not, it leads to a game paradigm that I enjoy, where the hacker can run and gun with the party, hacking on the fly in pretty much the exact same manner as the mage can toss out spells, although mechanically optimized to work on machines while the mage's abilities are optimized to work on living things and spirits. So long as it's internally consistent and leads to more compelling cyberpunk/action/etc gameplay, I don't care whether it's superscience or not.

Absolutely. If we want to start paring out the "unrealistic" things about Shadowrun, or even Gibsonian Cyberpunk in general, VR and/or wireless netrunning is one of the smaller issues.

But it can still make for a helluva yarn.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

There's a variety of ways to achieve these goals. The guy who wrote that fan supplement, Frank Trollman, has an approach I like.

Ew, That's a solution that's worse than the problem IMHO.

In particular the idea that idea that physical barriers provide no security but that software barriers work well enough to be trusted as standard operating procedure just doesn't pass my giggle test.

I've been messing about with computers only a casual basis and only for 12 years or so but I've definitely learned that software is unreliable. I'd put a Faraday cage in my skull before I trusted my brain to a software barrier. Brain software just lends a new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death".

Nope, not getting my SoD around this one.

[Godogma]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Ew, That's a solution that's worse than the problem IMHO.

In particular the idea that idea that physical barriers provide no security but that software barriers work well enough to be trusted as standard operating procedure just doesn't pass my giggle test.

I've been messing about with computers only a casual basis and only for 12 years or so but I've definitely learned that software is unreliable. I'd put a Faraday cage in my skull before I trusted my brain to a software barrier. Brain software just lends a new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death".

Nope, not getting my SoD around this one.

Quoted for Truth my friend, software is much more unreliable than hardware as far as that goes.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Godogma

*shrug* I find it breaks my suspension of disbelief to have someone decking at the speed of thought, controlling his meat bod and ALSO effectively attacking cyberware (or what in SR is cyberware - namely shielded electronics like Smartgun circuitry) with his brain/cyberdeck.

Can you say massive multiaction penalties? Sure, *IF* I were to allow it thats the least of the decker's worries along with the prohibitive skill levels necessary.

Well, aside from the fact that I'd rule decking = hacking cyberware, I agree. I'm not saying that doing things like this is something a skill-12 script kiddie can do. But that's part of the point. To allow highly skilled spec-ops deckers to do all kinds of over the top ship just like the fireball tossing mage, wall-running phys adept, or jon woo style dual-weilding street sam.

Basically, in order to be able to do crazy **** like this you have to invest pretty darn heavily in decking. Which conveniently makes it a separate archetype distinct from mages, street sams, faces, etc to get the clear seperation you see in the fiction between these skill sets.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Ew, That's a solution that's worse than the problem IMHO.

In particular the idea that idea that physical barriers provide no security but that software barriers work well enough to be trusted as standard operating procedure just doesn't pass my giggle test.

I've been messing about with computers only a casual basis and only for 12 years or so but I've definitely learned that software is unreliable. I'd put a Faraday cage in my skull before I trusted my brain to a software barrier. Brain software just lends a new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death".

Nope, not getting my SoD around this one.

Originally Posted by Godogma

Quoted for Truth my friend, software is much more unreliable than hardware as far as that goes.

Having grown up around computers, studied computer science at university, and worked in IT for my entire adult life, I can safely say that hardware is every bit as unreliable and crash-prone as software, if not moreso. Indeed, a good 90% of BSODs (or the Mac/Linux equivalent) are caused by underlying hardware issues, which then propagate into the software.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In particular the idea that idea that physical barriers provide no security but that software barriers work well enough to be trusted as standard operating procedure just doesn't pass my giggle test.

Physical barriers provide no security, so the only thing left is software. Well, and an air gap large enough to keep most people out of signal range, enforced by armed guards. And yes, this means security is not all that effective, depending on the decker. Leading conveniently to corps with billions of nuyen still being able to be penetrated by small groups of professionals instead of getting smooshed like bugs.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I've been messing about with computers only a casual basis and only for 12 years or so but I've definitely learned that software is unreliable. I'd put a Faraday cage in my skull before I trusted my brain to a software barrier. Brain software just lends a new meaning to "Blue Screen of Death".

Nope, not getting my SoD around this one.

A faraday cage only works if you don't have anything leading into or out of it. You'd need to implant it in your skin, and then it's only effective till someone shot you and broke the mesh. Plus you're stuck at manipulating computers using terminals. Still, I'd allow it. Just not an option I think any but the most paranoid security conscious would take.

I mean, yes, I can Blackhammer you to death by looking at you. But that's not gonna be any more legal (and significantly more difficult) than shooting you in the face. In SR it's cannon that a lot of people wear armored clothes precisely because getting shot is a problem. I'm fine with making getting hacked a similar problem.

[Godogma]

I'm not touching hacking people's firearms/cyberware etc without a direct link to the cyberware in question much less their brains with a ten foot pole much less willingly suspending my disbelief enough to think they can do it while also controlling their meatbods.

Especially at TL9.

Cyberware is generally Hardened for one thing, and for two has access ports for a reason. I found SR4 entirely broke my suspension of disbelief and that more or less is the showcase for the technology in question. I just don't believe the bandwidth is there, much less the capability to hack something in someone else without a link to them.

IF a decker is willing to spend enough money to buy uber L33T tools to hack something wirelessly sure, we can work something out - the military demonstrably had the technology even if it wasn't that great in SR. But hacking hardened targets inside someone else in wireless fashion or hacking what I would by necessity say is a hardened target in a firearm fast enough to matter? Good luck with that.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Well, aside from the fact that I'd rule decking = hacking cyberware, I agree. I'm not saying that doing things like this is something a skill-12 script kiddie can do. But that's part of the point. To allow highly skilled spec-ops deckers to do all kinds of over the top ship just like the fireball tossing mage, wall-running phys adept, or jon woo style dual-weilding street sam.

Basically, in order to be able to do crazy **** like this you have to invest pretty darn heavily in decking. Which conveniently makes it a separate archetype distinct from mages, street sams, faces, etc to get the clear seperation you see in the fiction between these skill sets.

Gold & Appel Inc ran a GURPS Shadowrun game where we used the SR4 version of wireless hacking, and it worked out pretty well ... the PCs were built on 500 points, so the hacker was able to buy Compartmentalized Mind (the samurai, for comparison, had Enhanced Time Sense and/or Altered Time Rate). Lots of over-the-top hijinks ensued, and a good time was had by all.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Godogma

I'm not touching hacking people's firearms/cyberware etc without a direct link to the cyberware in question much less their brains with a ten foot pole much less willingly suspending my disbelief enough to think they can do it while also controlling their meatbods.

Especially at TL9.

Cyberware is generally Hardened for one thing, and for two has access ports for a reason. I found SR4 entirely broke my suspension of disbelief and that more or less is the showcase for the technology in question. I just don't believe the bandwidth is there, much less the capability to hack something in someone else without a link to them.

IF a decker is willing to spend enough money to buy uber L33T tools to hack something wirelessly sure, we can work something out - the military demonstrably had the technology even if it wasn't that great in SR. But hacking hardened targets inside someone else in wireless fashion or hacking what I would by necessity say is a hardened target in a firearm fast enough to matter? Good luck with that.

If everything is networked wirelessly, then it stands to reason you can hack it wirelessly.

Of course, that's a good part of the reason I wouldn't network mission-critical things wirelessly if at all avoidable. And the idea that you can hack arbitrary hardware (or wetware) by ranged induction effects...that sort of technology is usually associated with Culture ships with dubious ethics. And by modern metrics, the main difference between a Culture ship and a god would be that a Culture ship is smarter and has less limitations.

If you're really trying to play up the 'hackers are wizards' thing, which seems to be the idea, it's a fine bit of superscience. But I wouldn't buy it.

Also, if you're hacking a piece of hardware by induction rather than through intended communications channels, how is any sort of security software going to help?