Lorenzoni Lock TL4 Firearms

Godogma · 09-23-2010, 08:58 PM

I mentioned these in the "[DF] I can haz gunpowderz" thread and would like someone with more experience than myself to look over my information and actually help me get game stats for Lorenzoni pattern firearms for use in GURPS games instead of theory in my head that I have to go over with a GM. I'm reposting the information I have there in this new thread to try and get some help.

On the issue of the repeating firearms problem; in the early sixteen hundreds there were already rifled barrels and repeating firearms of both rifle and pistol types.

Kalthoff and Lorenzoni both made repeating pistols of that time although Kalthoff mainly focused on long arms. Lorenzoni pistols had a capacity of six or more shots depending on the caliber ball it fired. (Louis L'amour owned one or perhaps a brace which had a capacity for 12 shots upon which he based the firearms Jubal carried in Jubal Sackett.) These weapons were still being manufactured up until sometime in the 1800s by various manufacturers.

Granted these were said to have a fairly delicate mechanism (with essential steel and/or magical techniques this definitely could be ameliorated) and had a tendency to explode if the user didn't make sure to wind the powder magazine properly into the closed position. (Perhaps a -4 or -6 unfamiliarity penalty or the like in game terms until someone has carefully went over the system and learned its intricacies?).

The mechanism worked as follows; charges of powder and ball were carried in tubular magazines in the butt of the pistol the openings closed by a revolving breechlock into which were cut two chambers. To load one simply pointed the pistol toward the ground and rotated a lever on the side of the gun. This dropped a ball and a measure of powder into one chamber sealing off the chamber and primed and closed the flash pan.

(A much simpler way of handling it would be to simply carry a three or four barreled pistol or rifle, which have been manufactured nearly as long as other firearms to mitigate the very RoF issue we speak of).

For proof to my claims you can check a book entitled "Pistols: An Illustrated History of Their Impact" by Jeff Kinard or a google search will turn up more information.

Here is a link to an auction for a later (1799-1806) nine shot flintlock pistol of the Lorenzoni type:
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4833569

Here is one for a rifle with far less detail provided dated to 1750:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=189638544

Here is a *28* shot Lorenzoni 17th century magazine long gun:
http://www.antiek.net/bolkantiques/s...6&the_start=45

Of course these weapons would likely be considered TL4+1 or TL5 weapons, they are flintlocks and the earlier versions could well qualify for TL4... Perhaps not technology wise, but date of production wise.

The nine shot Lorenzoni pistol I linked earlier is 16 3/4" long (42.6cm), and likely weighs around 3-4 lbs, with a RoF of 1 shot every two rounds perhaps (1/2), with an estimation of approximately 2d-1 pi+ damage, with a malfunction of around 15/16 perhaps? I'd estimate it costs more than a broadsword, somewhere around 1000-1500 range... But for a gunfighter of TL4+1 or TL4 its an excellent option to actually make firearms in DF useful.

In the one response I got to my earlier post, it was suggested that the design was likely finicky.

I actually have my doubts that the design was all that finicky, it was probably more along the lines of user error since I've seen Lorenzoni pattern firearms by four to six different makers and all of them were the same in major details spanning a period of over 120+ years (not all the links function anymore and at the time I wasn't savvy enough to save all the websites) so I think the design was likely quite solid since everyone from the Italians to the English to the Turks to the Germans and even a little place in Boston run by a man named Cookson made them up into the 1800s.

The Cookson family in England also made rifles with the pattern, so its likely those two are directly related. A design that spanned nearly 200 years without major changes it likely was severely ahead of its time more than being finicky.

09-23-2010, 08:58 PM	#1
Godogma Join Date: Jul 2010	Lorenzoni Lock TL4 Firearms I mentioned these in the "[DF] I can haz gunpowderz" thread and would like someone with more experience than myself to look over my information and actually help me get game stats for Lorenzoni pattern firearms for use in GURPS games instead of theory in my head that I have to go over with a GM. I'm reposting the information I have there in this new thread to try and get some help. On the issue of the repeating firearms problem; in the early sixteen hundreds there were already rifled barrels and repeating firearms of both rifle and pistol types. Kalthoff and Lorenzoni both made repeating pistols of that time although Kalthoff mainly focused on long arms. Lorenzoni pistols had a capacity of six or more shots depending on the caliber ball it fired. (Louis L'amour owned one or perhaps a brace which had a capacity for 12 shots upon which he based the firearms Jubal carried in Jubal Sackett.) These weapons were still being manufactured up until sometime in the 1800s by various manufacturers. Granted these were said to have a fairly delicate mechanism (with essential steel and/or magical techniques this definitely could be ameliorated) and had a tendency to explode if the user didn't make sure to wind the powder magazine properly into the closed position. (Perhaps a -4 or -6 unfamiliarity penalty or the like in game terms until someone has carefully went over the system and learned its intricacies?). The mechanism worked as follows; charges of powder and ball were carried in tubular magazines in the butt of the pistol the openings closed by a revolving breechlock into which were cut two chambers. To load one simply pointed the pistol toward the ground and rotated a lever on the side of the gun. This dropped a ball and a measure of powder into one chamber sealing off the chamber and primed and closed the flash pan. (A much simpler way of handling it would be to simply carry a three or four barreled pistol or rifle, which have been manufactured nearly as long as other firearms to mitigate the very RoF issue we speak of). For proof to my claims you can check a book entitled "Pistols: An Illustrated History of Their Impact" by Jeff Kinard or a google search will turn up more information. Here is a link to an auction for a later (1799-1806) nine shot flintlock pistol of the Lorenzoni type: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4833569 Here is one for a rifle with far less detail provided dated to 1750: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=189638544 Here is a 28 shot Lorenzoni 17th century magazine long gun: http://www.antiek.net/bolkantiques/s...6&the_start=45 Of course these weapons would likely be considered TL4+1 or TL5 weapons, they are flintlocks and the earlier versions could well qualify for TL4... Perhaps not technology wise, but date of production wise. The nine shot Lorenzoni pistol I linked earlier is 16 3/4" long (42.6cm), and likely weighs around 3-4 lbs, with a RoF of 1 shot every two rounds perhaps (1/2), with an estimation of approximately 2d-1 pi+ damage, with a malfunction of around 15/16 perhaps? I'd estimate it costs more than a broadsword, somewhere around 1000-1500 range... But for a gunfighter of TL4+1 or TL4 its an excellent option to actually make firearms in DF useful. In the one response I got to my earlier post, it was suggested that the design was likely finicky. I actually have my doubts that the design was all that finicky, it was probably more along the lines of user error since I've seen Lorenzoni pattern firearms by four to six different makers and all of them were the same in major details spanning a period of over 120+ years (not all the links function anymore and at the time I wasn't savvy enough to save all the websites) so I think the design was likely quite solid since everyone from the Italians to the English to the Turks to the Germans and even a little place in Boston run by a man named Cookson made them up into the 1800s. The Cookson family in England also made rifles with the pattern, so its likely those two are directly related. A design that spanned nearly 200 years without major changes it likely was severely ahead of its time more than being finicky. Last edited by Godogma; 09-23-2010 at 11:00 PM. Reason: Fixing the links I copied from the other thread - they were broken.