[DF] I can haz gunpowderz?

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Because that doesn't happen as much in the movies?
Kung-Fu movies have the same sorts of tropes. Chambara movement, various esoteric skills and such account for this. Otherwise, movies do indeed have a lot of silly things to do with guns. But note that the damage for muscle-powered weapons is already unrealistically high. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I'm specifically saying that if you want a gunner niche in DF you ought to use the tropes of action movies in regards to guns. The alternative of making ST based damage realistic relative to the square of KE isn't fun and simply saying "Guns suck, don't use them" is counterproductive.

Walking Arsenal is a video-game trope, not really a movie trope (the only movie example I can think of is The Matrix, and it's a stretch - the people clearly had super strength/powers and possibly a Snatcher variant). It's completely inappropriate for a DF game, as are a number of other cinematic perks in Gun-Fu.

I'd probably allow a few specific TL 5+ firearms in DF. Probably single shot pistols (or 2+ with multiple barrels), but no revolvers or anything like that. Keep the damage around 2d or so, but with the problems inherent to them, such as being vulnerable to water/fire, needing to reload, being relatively expensive, stuff like that. But yeah, I'd definitely allow them, and would be happy to use them with a Pirate-type template or even an Artificer-type.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Careful though. The powder isn't the limitation on most guns. There's easily enough space to pack three times as much powder into the barrel after all. The reason you don't is it will burst the gun. Enchanting the the barrel will be required to increase damage of a firearm, not enchanted powder.

Essential Fuel is better than normal fuel, but only if used in a machine (feeding it to a mule won't make the mule go further). It doesn't seem out of line to let essential gunpowder function better as gunpowder, meaning while it effectively has higher REF, it won't burst your musket's barrel.
Of course, requiring a reinforced barrel (made of Essential Metal perhaps, as Anthony suggested) may be appropriate. In that case, essential gunpowder will probably see more use in grenades and the like than muskets.

Originally Posted by malloyd

They probably can't carry enough of these things to need to worry about the fatigue cost. If you think it's a problem Energy Reserve (one spell) is pretty cheap.

The primary purpose is to be able to do it reliably, with the FP reduction being a fortunate side effect. Of course, a fellow using pistols attached to lariats might be able to wrack up quite a bit of FP using this spell.
And, of course, if someone figures out self-contained cartridges for magelocks, a shooter could go through quite a bit of ammo in one go.

Originally Posted by malloyd

I do think to be competitive as a character class core, the really critical issue is rate of fire. Damage and range are already decent, the real problem is the one or two shots and out of the fight issue - i.e. the 1st level MU problem.

A magelock should take less time to reload than a flintlock. A self-priming pan has a comparable effect, so that's a 10 second reduction. Fast-Draw cuts another 10 seconds, so we're down to 20. My previously proposed house-rule would cut this in half, to 10 seconds, for a -10 to Fast-Draw (-5 for Gunslingers). 10 seconds may be workable, particularly for battles that are moderately spread out.

Originally Posted by malloyd

A Create Gunpowder spell might help. A reloading drill of the form tip the gun up, cast spell so powder falls down the barrel, drop bullet on top of it and ram is going to be quite a few seconds faster than messing with a container of powder, and also does away with the risks of carrying a container of explosives on you in an environment where something might breathe fire on you. Though it does bump the cost up several points.

That's comparable to using a cartridge (but keep in mind you'll want some wadding in the mix). Assuming a magelock weapon, you're looking at 20 second base, 10 seconds with Fast-Draw, and 5 seconds with a -10 to Fast-Draw. Seems fairly workable. Matchlock, with a base time of 60 seconds to reload, would at best take 10 seconds - but why bother with a matchlock if you're already a mage?

[combatmedic]

I'd freely allow guns and gunpowder weapons of any kind....provided these were all TL3. That is: rockets, simple handgonnes (not matchlock arqebuses), fire-lance, petard, etc. You have cool stuff, but nothing that's going to replace bows, crossbows, and melee weapons.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Because that doesn't happen as much in the movies?

Sure it does, at least with regard to weapons.

Kung-Fu movies have the same sorts of tropes. Chambara movement, various esoteric skills and such account for this. Otherwise, movies do indeed have a lot of silly things to do with guns. But note that the damage for muscle-powered weapons is already unrealistically high. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I'm specifically saying that if you want a gunner niche in DF you ought to use the tropes of action movies in regards to guns. The alternative of making ST based damage realistic relative to the square of KE isn't fun and simply saying "Guns suck, don't use them" is counterproductive.

Yes bringing a minigun into a dungeon would be effective but break the genre of DF.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Langy

Walking Arsenal is a video-game trope, not really a movie trope (the only movie example I can think of is The Matrix, and it's a stretch - the people clearly had super strength/powers and possibly a Snatcher variant). It's completely inappropriate for a DF game, as are a number of other cinematic perks in Gun-Fu.

I'd probably allow a few specific TL 5+ firearms in DF. Probably single shot pistols (or 2+ with multiple barrels), but no revolvers or anything like that. Keep the damage around 2d or so, but with the problems inherent to them, such as being vulnerable to water/fire, needing to reload, being relatively expensive, stuff like that. But yeah, I'd definitely allow them, and would be happy to use them with a Pirate-type template or even an Artificer-type.

I wouldn't let anything outside of TL 4 guns in. A H&H .600 NE in a dungeon? No.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Langy

Walking Arsenal is a video-game trope, not really a movie trope (the only movie example I can think of is The Matrix, and it's a stretch - the people clearly had super strength/powers and possibly a Snatcher variant). It's completely inappropriate for a DF game, as are a number of other cinematic perks in Gun-Fu.

And ignoring a lot about encumbrance is also a video game trope, see the whole thing about putting suits of armor that you don't have the strength for in your backpack and how often does armor actually slow someone down?

There are some specific movies you can cite for walking arsenal effects.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

And ignoring a lot about encumbrance is also a video game trope, see the whole thing about putting suits of armor that you don't have the strength for in your backpack and how often does armor actually slow someone down?

Most games I've played that have minimum stat requirements do have inventory limits, they simply choose to do so by volume rather than mass (and a god deal of that is rather questionable, what with six gems taking up as much inventory space as a full suit of plate armor). They'll generally allow you to carry far more than what is realistic - particularly if you fill your inventory with heavy suits of armor. The games that do limit you on the basis of mass similarly let you carry a ridiculous amount, although frequently a good deal of that is going to be vendor trash (as in such games you generally get most of your money by selling stuff you pick up).


Personally, I don't see a reason why Walking Arsenal should be limited to firearms (aside from the source material being old school first person shooters), although with it being a Perk limiting each instance of it in such a way would likely be appropriate (so have a version for firearms, a version for muscle-powered ranged weapons, a version for blades, and a version for impact weapons, as an example). Now, if you want to help make firearms viable in DF, limiting Walking Arsenal to only apply to firearms could be a decent way to do so.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

They'll generally allow you to carry far more than what is realistic - particularly if you fill your inventory with heavy suits of armor.

In most cases, armor that's too heavy for you to wear (due to a stat requirement) is not too heavy for you to carry in your backpack.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

I wouldn't let anything outside of TL 4 guns in. A H&H .600 NE in a dungeon? No.

If I had stats for TL4 weapons, I might use them (I don't know - I have no idea what TL4 weapons were like and if they'd fit my image of a cool piratey guy with a brace of pistols), but High-Tech only has TL5+ guns in it. I also specified I'd only allow a few specific TL5+ weapons in - I'd make sure they weren't unbalanced. The TL6 H&H .600 NE I almost certainly wouldn't allow just like I wouldn't allow a TL8 M16 or M82.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Langy

If I had stats for TL4 weapons, I might use them

See p. B278-9. There are two TL4 pistols, two muskets, and a blunderbuss, as well as a TL3 handgonne. Low Tech, of course, will have more.