Cinematic heroes soak damage w/ energy reserve?

[Gef]

Howdy, I'm hoping to reprise a fantasy game soon, one focusing on gladiators. In the previous incarnation, I noticed that cinematic heroes can dish out a lot more damage than they can take:

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Suppose a 100pt character with ST 13 (30), broadsword Weapon Master (10 with limitations), which justifies Striking ST +4 from Body Control power (10 more with limitations). That leaves plenty for other attributes, advantages, and skills, mainly a gladiator style. Broadsword damage is 3d+6!
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So, my first notion is to fix the damage bonus instead of scaling it per die, which helps keep it from overwhelming the differences between weapons, but that still leaves high damage relative to soak. In a previous post, Kromm suggested a "Vitality Reserve" advantage, parallel to Energy Reserve but for hit points:

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http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...29&postcount=8
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Meanwhile, I have wizards who can use an energy reserve to cast spells, which seems way more useful than one for imbuements and cinematic skills like power blow, in part because spells have higher energy costs and in part because spells work effectively at lower skill levels. I therefore allow chi-based energy reserves to cover the fatigue cost of physical feats (extra effort in combat).

My question is this, what do you think of allowing an energy reserve to act as a vitality reserve, too? At least for soaking attack damage, if not disease, poison, etc. Has anyone playtested the notion? An energy reserve recovers MUCH quicker than HP, but then again, a hit point which is less expnsive counts twice before any possibility of death, and in conjunction with high HT counts up to 6 times before death. I would implement it with the caveat that the cinematic hero takes a minimum of 1 point of "real" damage per attack. In a scenario where every PC can be, and most will be, cinematic (er, kinemagic) heroes, does that sound fair, or unbalancing?

Thanks,

GEF

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Gef

Howdy, I'm hoping to reprise a fantasy game soon, one focusing on gladiators. In the previous incarnation, I noticed that cinematic heroes can dish out a lot more damage than they can take:

----
Suppose a 100pt character with ST 13 (30), broadsword Weapon Master (10 with limitations), which justifies Striking ST +4 from Body Control power (10 more with limitations). That leaves plenty for other attributes, advantages, and skills, mainly a gladiator style. Broadsword damage is 3d+6!
----

So, my first notion is to fix the damage bonus instead of scaling it per die, which helps keep it from overwhelming the differences between weapons, but that still leaves high damage relative to soak. In a previous post, Kromm suggested a "Vitality Reserve" advantage, parallel to Energy Reserve but for hit points:

----
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...29&postcount=8
----

Meanwhile, I have wizards who can use an energy reserve to cast spells, which seems way more useful than one for imbuements and cinematic skills like power blow, in part because spells have higher energy costs and in part because spells work effectively at lower skill levels. I therefore allow chi-based energy reserves to cover the fatigue cost of physical feats (extra effort in combat).

My question is this, what do you think of allowing an energy reserve to act as a vitality reserve, too? At least for soaking attack damage, if not disease, poison, etc. Has anyone playtested the notion? An energy reserve recovers MUCH quicker than HP, but then again, a hit point which is less expnsive counts twice before any possibility of death, and in conjunction with high HT counts up to 6 times before death. I would implement it with the caveat that the cinematic hero takes a minimum of 1 point of "real" damage per attack. In a scenario where every PC can be, and most will be, cinematic (er, kinemagic) heroes, does that sound fair, or unbalancing?

Thanks,

GEF

Nah, make them pay for the two separately; they really do different things. However, if you use the TV Action Violence cinematic combat rule, they can use one point of FP or ER to automatically evade any big, lethal attack.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Gef

My question is this, what do you think of allowing an energy reserve to act as a vitality reserve, too? At least for soaking attack damage, if not disease, poison, etc. Has anyone play-tested the notion? An energy reserve recovers MUCH quicker than HP, but then again, a hit point which is less expensive counts twice before any possibility of death, and in conjunction with high HT counts up to 6 times before death. I would implement it with the caveat that the cinematic hero takes a minimum of 1 point of "real" damage per attack. In a scenario where every PC can be, and most will be, cinematic (er, kinemagic) heroes, does that sound fair, or unbalancing?

• Energy Reserve (1) [3] vs Vitality Reserve (1) [2]. So a +50% Enhancement.
• 1 Damage Per Attack Bypasses ER would be a -40% (1/3, rounded up) Limitation.

The Enhancement is stronger than the Limitation. Throw in another -10% worth of limits and call it a campaign feature for a net +0% cost.

Even without the additional -10% in limitations it isn't unbalancing as everyone gets the benefit. The vitality reserve will make anyone with one survive a lot more than they would otherwise. Investing in high defenses is still move useful (though also more expensive) for the points.

[Christopher R. Rice]

I would go with Energy Reserve (Mundane) with Extra Option (Second Wind).

That would allow you to spend 1 FP to heal every 1 HP and allow you to use it for extra effort as well (definitely something hero's do!).

Ghostdancer

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I would go with Energy Reserve (Mundane) with Extra Option (Second Wind).

That would allow you to spend 1 FP to heal every 1 HP and allow you to use it for extra effort as well (definitely something hero's do!).

Ghostdancer

Now he needs to go buy GURPS Action 2, you realize, since that expansion on the Extra Effort in Combat rules only shows up there so far.

[Fnordianslip]

I think part of the problem is that you're looking at a character who's spent half their points on buttkicking powers. Of course they can deal out a ton of damage if all you've bought them is damaging abilities like ST, Striking ST, and Weapon Master. Say you spent the same 50 points on Combat Reflexes, Weapon Skill, and DX. Suddenly, you'd have a character who could dodge better, go first, and likely make those hits to the vitals. Or, you could spend 50 points on DR with Tough Skin. Suddenly you'd be immune to that damage. GURPS is pretty well balanced in terms of point spending, you just have to look at all your options instead of just focusing on one trait.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Now he needs to go buy GURPS Action 2, you realize, since that expansion on the Extra Effort in Combat rules only shows up there so far.

Well he can (and should, all cinematic games can benefit from those books regardless of actual genre) but I am sure he can come up with what said rule does by simply reading my post.

Originally Posted by Fnordianslip

I think part of the problem is that you're looking at a character who's spent half their points on buttkicking powers. Of course they can deal out a ton of damage if all you've bought them is damaging abilities like ST, Striking ST, and Weapon Master. Say you spent the same 50 points on Combat Reflexes, Weapon Skill, and DX. Suddenly, you'd have a character who could dodge better, go first, and likely make those hits to the vitals. Or, you could spend 50 points on DR with Tough Skin. Suddenly you'd be immune to that damage. GURPS is pretty well balanced in terms of point spending, you just have to look at all your options instead of just focusing on one trait.

Too right! If you don't want them to stop butt don't allow them to have certian advantages, limit starting skill levels (Attribute+2 is what I use when I use it), and enforce a strict disadvantage limit or even say "-40 points is it, regardless of actual value". I have learned (the hard way) that if your PC's build a hero-type character that you (as the GM) should let them be hero's. IMO it's much better to throw them against moderate to difficult challenges and let them come out on the skin of their teeth each time, then switch it up give them something easy...then ridiculously hard.

Just about every player wants to be John McClane*. They want to be beat up, knocked down, and have the crap kicked out of them...but they want to get up, kick butt, and keep fighting. Once again I feel this crosses just about every genre out there.

Now if this isn't the sort of game (Cinematic) you don't want to run you need to let your players know before they even come up with concepts. I have found that if you give as much info as possible before you even pull out the books then you've just about licked the majority of character concept conflicts.

I'd still go with my suggestion from before, its the simplest (IMHO of course) but you might go with something like what Sunrunner said, though I have no idea how that might play out, it might produce wonky results since it's basically HP+FP but selective, still I don't see a real problem as it costs 4.5/level whereas HP+FP would cost 5/level.

Ghostdancer

* Die Hard movie series in case anyone didn't get that.

[Gef]

Thanks, but I beg to differ. "Butt-kicking" is built-in to Weapon Master et al, but protection not so much. Of course, such characters are dodgin' fools, but they eventually get hit and go right down. 3d+6 damage blows past TL3 armor, yet if I allow DR 10 Tough Skin, then I have characters who needn't bother ducking the slings and arrows of ordinary soldiers, who could march right out of the arena. I much prefer the idea of soaking additional damage so you can last longer than Joe Blow and maybe even handle a street gang but still think twice about taking on the army single-handed. Ghostdancer, I'll look into Action Heroes 2. If it has a mechanism that builds a little staying power into Weapon Master without taking a separate advantage, that'd be even better. -GEF

Originally Posted by Fnordianslip

I think part of the problem is that you're looking at a character who's spent half their points on buttkicking powers. Of course they can deal out a ton of damage if all you've bought them is damaging abilities like ST, Striking ST, and Weapon Master. Say you spent the same 50 points on Combat Reflexes, Weapon Skill, and DX. Suddenly, you'd have a character who could dodge better, go first, and likely make those hits to the vitals. Or, you could spend 50 points on DR with Tough Skin. Suddenly you'd be immune to that damage. GURPS is pretty well balanced in terms of point spending, you just have to look at all your options instead of just focusing on one trait.