Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[Icelander]

The Power Grappling Perk on MA p. 51 gives the option of replacing normally DX-based 'grappling rolls' with ST-based rolls. It also allows the replacement of ST rolls with Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling bonuses with ST-based rolls against Judo, Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.

The second benefit is straight-forward to adjudicate. A ST roll (with a possible +1 or +2) becomes a ST-based skill roll.

But the first one is tricker. What are 'grappling rolls'? Are those any rolls against grappling skills (with the caveat that the perk explicitly does not affect rolls to hit and active defences)? Any rolls you make for 'Actions after a Grapple' in MA?

In particular, are either of the following 'grappling rolls'?

a) Ready an item while grappled.
b) Rolls to inflict damage with Arm Lock or Leg Lock?

I like the Perk, but I feel that it may incorporate too many effects for one trait. For one thing, I dislike how it benefits the cliched weak, but skilled, akidoka just as much, or more, than it benefits more realistic grappling MMA fighters with ST and DX scores closer to each other.

I'm thinking of splitting it up into Power Grappling (allow substitutions of ST-based rolls for DX-based ones) and Cunning Grappler (allow ST-based skill instead of ST rolls). But that's not workable if the benefit under Power Grappling applies too seldom to be any use.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The Power Grappling Perk on MA p. 51 gives the option of replacing normally DX-based 'grappling rolls' with ST-based rolls. It also allows the replacement of ST rolls with Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling bonuses with ST-based rolls against Judo, Sumo Wrestling or Wrestling.

The second benefit is straight-forward to adjudicate. A ST roll (with a possible +1 or +2) becomes a ST-based skill roll.

But the first one is tricker. What are 'grappling rolls'? Are those any rolls against grappling skills (with the caveat that the perk explicitly does not affect rolls to hit and active defences)? Any rolls you make for 'Actions after a Grapple' in MA?

I believe it was Kromm who has mentioned before that it's intended to (basically) replace everything that's not a "to hit" or "parry" roll, if you grok my meaning. I'm apparently especially inarticulate this afternoon. EDIT: I'd actually go right back to the Basic Set to clarify what the GURPS rules mean by "grappling" - p370 uses it to refer to a state or condition, rather than "a grapple" which is a single action which initiates the state or condition of grappling (as in Actions After a Grapple). "A Grapple" seems to pretty clearly refer to that first class of forbidden actions, the "to hit" part. Which leaves everything else wide open.

The wording of the perk seems pretty clear though: (emphasis in the original, changed to bold so it's visible in the quotebox)

Originally Posted by Martial Arts

Except when rolling to hit or for an active defense, you may op to shift normally DX-based grappling rolls to ST.

Originally Posted by Icelander

In particular, are either of the following 'grappling rolls'?

a) Ready an item while grappled.

As you aren't hitting anyone with it, grabbing anyone with it, or parrying with it, yes.

Originally Posted by Icelander

b) Rolls to inflict damage with Arm Lock or Leg Lock?

Same answer, with the same explanation really.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I believe it was Kromm who has mentioned before that it's intended to (basically) replace everything that's not a "to hit" or "parry" roll, if you grok my meaning.

Do you have a cite somewhere?

Of course, it would also be awesome if His Line Editorness hisself saw fit to chime in, too. ;)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Bruno

As you aren't hitting anyone with it, grabbing anyone with it, or parrying with it, yes.

I actually disagree with this, since the DX roll in question here is not a use of an ability to grapple, and I don't see how ST helps.

This is part of a Ready maneuver, and while I'd mitigate penalties based on having Pinned (big, maybe total removal of penalties), or Grappled (partial removal), your opponent, I'd mostly adjudicate this as something part of a combat maneuver.

[Streacer]

The thing is, high ST really does make the moves more likely to be successful, so I don't have much issue with basing some rolls off of ST. The cry "stop MUSCLING IT!" in class is so often repeated that it's just the natural way to do stuff.

I suppose my disagreement with this fluff interpretation is that I view the ST-based uses of grappling to be the various contests and times you can substitute in ST, such as in Arm Lock where you can base damage on either a ST roll or your Arm Lock technique, which fits the stereotype Strong vs Skilled better... it's probably fair to add skill/technique bonuses to some of these rolls also. By simply adding both together you fundamentally change the interaction instead of focusing on "bigger brute manhandling his opponent physically" which is the direction I'd like to go with the changes I've considered.

In terms of crunch, I still maintain that it is worth significantly more than a 1 point perk. The argument can be made that all grappling should rely on strength by default, but this would require so much testing and balancing that I personally won't try to implement it as a house rule. If I were to go this route though, instead of a perk I would probably utilize a technique-to-use-with-other-techniques along the lines of Counterattack, essentially upping the cost to bring into line better.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Streacer

In terms of crunch, I still maintain that it is worth significantly more than a 1 point perk. The argument can be made that all grappling should rely on strength by default, but this would require so much testing and balancing that I personally won't try to implement it as a house rule. If I were to go this route though, instead of a perk I would probably utilize a technique-to-use-with-other-techniques along the lines of Counterattack, essentially upping the cost to bring into line better.

Can you elaborate on how such a technique would mechanically work?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Streacer

I suppose my disagreement with this fluff interpretation...

I will admit taking issue with this characterization. My attempt at illumination of why ST based mechanics have at least a good run at the truth is not fluff, but experience. I've grappled bigger and smaller people than I am, as well as one or two people of equal size but much smaller.

Power Grappling is more or less correct as described. If you feel that only after you've gotten some skill does this make sense...fine. Only allow it after a PC has spent 10pts on grappling skills (Judo, Wrestling, Sumo). At that point, you've either spent 4/4/2 in, say, Judo/Wrestling/Sumo, or more likely either 8/2 in Judo/Wrestling (for the parry and throw and finish on the ground set) or 8/2 in Wrestling/Judo (for the ground fighters who also bend folks).

The only thing that I'd probably do if you're really making maximum use of Power Grappling is perhaps not allow certain things. Arm/Wrist and Leg locks as described are DX based, almost entirely. If you base it on ST, you're probably doing Wrench Limb (often very successfully).

Other than that, and after chatting offline with another well regarded GURPSer who has also actually done MMA with grappling and striking, I'm back to the Perk is fine. If you have an issue with it, recall that while some Perks are taught from the git-go in a style, many can only be acquired after 10pts spent in particular skills.

Even if you say grappling is taken at 100hours per point, that's still 1000 hours of training here. Two hours per day, every other day, for four years. Eight years by RAW at 200hrs/pt. Learning to make maximum use of your ST while at the same time a DX11 fighter picks up Wrestling-13 and Judo-10 (8/2 pts respectively) doesn't seem game breaking at any normal human ST.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The only thing that I'd probably do if you're really making maximum use of Power Grappling is perhaps not allow certain things. Arm/Wrist and Leg locks as described are DX based, almost entirely. If you base it on ST, you're probably doing Wrench Limb (often very successfully).

However, the game-benefit of allowing ST-for-DX substitutions mainly affects these techniques. Pins and takedowns already offer the option of basing it on ST and the other damage-dealing options are ST-based.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Other than that, and after chatting offline with another well regarded GURPSer who has also actually done MMA with grappling and striking, I'm back to the Perk is fine. If you have an issue with it, recall that while some Perks are taught from the git-go in a style, many can only be acquired after 10pts spent in particular skills.

Even if you say grappling is taken at 100hours per point, that's still 1000 hours of training here. Two hours per day, every other day, for four years. Eight years by RAW at 200hrs/pt. Learning to make maximum use of your ST while at the same time a DX11 fighter picks up Wrestling-13 and Judo-10 (8/2 pts respectively) doesn't seem game breaking at any normal human ST.

Certainly not game-breaking, no. Nor unrealistic.

But you're forgetting that Power Grappling does two things. One is knowing how to make maximum use of your ST. The other is knowing how to make maximum use of skill, regardless of your ST.

I want skilled grapplers to have the option of both of those, certainly, but I feel they should be thematically distinct.

What I'm wondering is whether each of them is powerful enough to be a Perk in their own right or whether I should add an extra benefit to them if they are to stand seperately, something more thematically appropriate. What do you think? And what benefits should I add, if any are needed?

[Streacer]

allowing a ST-based skill roll to sub for Breaking Free, is not just a non-problem, I think it's great, and a good time where skill SHOULD be useful in helping out ST.

I agree, I did mention before that I think strength rolls should receive (finite) skill/technique bonuses, kinda like Basic Set wrestling provides. Actually I tend to think the rolls to break free are just a tad harsh in general, they're fine for Basic Set grappling but when you consider that Locks inflict passive damage and allow devastating advanced moves it gets a bit messier.


I think it's safe to say that if you manage to get yourself both pinned and put into a lock you should probably lose the fight, perks and technique bonuses being irrelevant at that level of domination. For that to even happen in the first place you have to already be weaker and/or less skilled.

For the one-handed grappling, I'm really not sure how you concluded that the skill level should be halved... it seems like it would just be ST based skill applied to a half-value ST. More pertinently, your example reinforces my point that Power Grappling removes the need for any real strength investment. Why would a dedicated grappler buy 2 ST for 20 points, when they could buy 5 levels of grappling instead and get it anyway. So you just need DX+5 levels of skill at normal ST 10, (10/2 + 5 = 10, breaking even) to have a 50/50 shot of keeping an average adult in a one-handed arm lock, with NO special bonuses, at a total investment of 21 points (including the perk). That's basically the same cost as being slightly above average intellectually. As a side note, I think you can apply the arm lock with 2 hands normally and then release one hand later as a free action.

You are right about PG not directly helping defenses/to-hit, however the PG user should always have the highest practical skill because there is no real incentive to invest in anything else! He doesn't need ST (see example 1) or DX (for 1 skill?).

PG does not help with the ST contest to resist your opponent from breaking free... so it does have some utility there... however because skill is so much cheaper and does help with your own escapability (as well as everything else) it is still a far stronger play to max out skill, try to land the first/best grapple, and know that you have the best chance to break free if you need to. At lowish/harsh realism skill levels the +5 for 2 hands and such will hold, but because the PG bonus is both uncapped AND increases rapidly, any serious grappling adventurer/warrior will very quickly reach the point of breaking free with trivial ease, and never be caught.


PG may be realistic, and its bonuses may make real world sense. But at 1 point it is not giving up ANYTHING of serious value that would justify a "tradeoff" for the advantage in game. Take a look at Ground Guard (the other main grappling perk) and try to justify the two costing the same. Or think of a reason why a decently skilled grappler wouldn't bother take Power Grappling. It doesn't matter what your size or strength or preferred style is, or even who your opponents are going to be. Any grappler is going to want high skill (same as any other specialty), and anyone with high skill is going to get massive benefits from Power Grappling.

[Streacer]

I'll certainly not dispute that I have been boiling the RAW down to 1-dimensional absurdity in order to illustrate a point. My original goal was/is precisely to find a way to change or clarify it so as to prevent similar situations from cropping up in some future game, in order to do a better job as GM. See also "Judo Throwing an Elephant".

Off the top of my head I'm not aware of any other uncapped bonuses in GURPS, I feel the change from a QC of attribute to a QC of skill is an oversight.

It doesn't? I'd assume skill adds to ST here if it's an option, both on attack and defense.

The way I read the Wrestling skill description it doesn't look like it provides the +1/+2 bonus to it, which means PG doesn't apply either. Could just be ambiguously worded though.

Trade-off? It's not a trade-off, and isn't meant that way. Perks are effectively "you can ignore one special case rule that normally gets in your way" in many cases. In this case, for non-degenerate builds, it allows skill to apply to ST in a few ways that actually work out, in my opinion and observation through training and practice, closer to how real grappling tends to work than the rules currently show.

This is probably our fundamental difference then. I feel that perks are 1 point advantages and should be balanced as such, and that PG may not currently meet that criteria.



I'm sorry that you think I am trying to argue with you, I appreciate your insight. Have a nice day.