Power Grappling and 'grappling rolls'

[Streacer]

Can you elaborate on how such a technique would mechanically work?

Power Grapple
Hard
Default: prerequisite skill-5.
Prerequisite: Any unarmed grappling skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

You’re adept at applying force precisely when wrestling. You may opt to base normally DX-based grappling rolls on ST. Roll against Power Grapple. You can use another technique as your grappling move; see Using Techniques Together (p. 64) to find effective skill level.

Following the example of Counterattack technique gives something along those lines. Of course, the skill-based strength bonus is still uncapped so the basic problem I have remains, but if people want to allow it the GM can now expand the range of character levels before this perk becomes a "must have" for every grappler with any training.

I will admit taking issue with this characterization.

I'm sorry, we must have different definitions of 'fluff' ... to me it is simply the narrative explanation of what/why is happening, as opposed to the number-crunching aspects of game mechanics. Not meant to be denigrating.

Learning to make maximum use of your ST

The issue I have is not them bringing "their strength" to bear, it is that their skill level (a completely independent variable) gives them strength and therefore eliminates any gaming drawbacks to having a trade-off. This is why active defense and to-hit still benefit from the perk, despite the obvious attempt to prevent that by specifically excluding them. A significantly weaker fighter can get large benefits from "power grappling" via unlimited strength gains. Wrestling caps at +2 strength ordinarily, but this allows +10 and more. Giving the tiny woman with ST 7 and Judo at DX+20 a ST 27 score so she can brutalize Brock Lesner, based on her ability to "utilize her ST effectively" just feels... wrong. (If she was using skillful techniques I wouldn't care, which is what Arm Lock and such are supposed to do). Not to mention, I'm far more concerned with the scalability of these generic rules rather than its implications in a realistic low-point campaign. I'm sure you can envision a cinematic MA game with skill levels beyond 13.

Given that a normal human being has ST/DX 10 each and skill level 13 is considered within the norm for "ordinary folks", I contend that a perk which is mathematically superior for any character with at least DX+3 to take is no longer a stylistic characterization tool with minor/occasional benefits (perk), regardless of its realism.


Is this because everyone else reads "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll" while I read "ST-based Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling roll"? We're substituting a skill for an attribute and nobody sees potential for mishaps.



Ok to be fair, my examples have devolved to the point where DX and ST are irrelevant and a single skill reigns supreme, so saying that defense/to-hit benefit is no longer right. But they are certainly not harmed since this perk makes attributes little more than point sinks.

[DouglasCole]

I'm going to forget the entire rest of the discussion for a moment and discuss an example, using Arm Lock, noting where Power Grappling may or may not apply.

A and B are fighting. A attacks B, and B rolls, and makes, a Judo or Wrestling based Parry. Power Grappling (hereafter PG) does NOT apply, since it's an active defense.

B now has the opportunity to do something nasty to A. He may attempt to use Arm Lock against A, by rolling against DX-based Arm Lock, which can be based on Judo or Wrestling. Again, PG does NOT apply, since the description on p. B403 explicitly says "...roll vs Judo or Wrestling to hit." [Emphasis mine].

Next turn, assuming the Lock succeeds, A may attempt to Break Free. This is a Quick Contest of ST, with fairly mongo bonuses for B if he's got A pinned or is grappling A with both hands, AND +4 because it's an Arm Lock. Yow.

However, let's say A has Power Grappling...a ha! In this case, instead of just ST, he may make a ST-based skill roll instead...basically 'floating the bonus' from his skill to his ST. In effect, his Judo or Wrestling skill helps him fight the lock; the more he knows, the better he can leverage his ST to break out. And yet, he's got to overcome up to a +14 bonus (Pinned plus Arm Lock), so you're going to have to be MUCH stronger AND much more skilled before this is remotely an issue.

Where it makes things more interesting is when B might want to do a ONE HANDED Arm Lock (Martial Arts p. 116). You still can't leverage PG to initiate the lock, because that's a to hit roll, so we're safe there. however, when the next turn comes around, and you're making your contest of ST at ST/2. You lose effectively ALL the bonuses unless you've got the guy Pinned. In reality, this means that normal people can never put on a one-handed Arm Lock; or rather, it's fairly easy to escape, since once you've got the lock (and you'd better be good enough to absorb the extra one hand penalties, and that's DX all the way) even a fairly strong person (ST12) will be even-up against a weakling of ST6, and at a significant disadvantage against ST10-12.

Now, if you have Power Grappling, the rules as written seem to suggest that you can float your skill bonus over to ST, making someone who spends to DX+4 get SOME benefit for those thousands of hours of training to his Arm Lock skill with one hand. If you wanted to, however, you could say the bonus adds to ST FIRST, and is then halved for one hand...a very defensible GM call. So in order to BREAK EVEN at a one-hand lock, you need ST12, DX+8 in Wrestling. With DX10, that's 32 points in Wrestling, 20pts in ST. To break EVEN with a ST10 guy.

For the opposite case, on the offensive, with two hands and Arm Lock, the bonuses are so extreme that PG will mainly be used to add to the ST roll to break free. In THIS case, it goes over 1:1, but you need enough ST and skill to overcome a routine +9 bonus here, PLUS overcoming any superior ST of the other guy. In this case, PG only makes it less than futile to even attempt.

I'm going to ask for help in coming up with examples of when you make each type of roll. The second concept in the PG description, allowing a ST-based skill roll to sub for Breaking Free, is not just a non-problem, I think it's great, and a good time where skill SHOULD be useful in helping out ST.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Next turn, assuming the Lock succeeds, A may attempt to Break Free. This is a Quick Contest of ST, with fairly mongo bonuses for B if he's got A pinned or is grappling A with both hands, AND +4 because it's an Arm Lock. Yow.

This isn't a quick contest of ST. It's a quick contest of your ST or Arm Lock against your opponents ST or HT.

[DouglasCole]

Another example. I'm not doing this to necessarily prove a point, but my knowledge of the grappling rules isn't as good as the HTH and esp the firearm rules, so examples help me.

Let's again take two fighters, A and B, and this time, the strategy will be that B wants to either respond to an attack by A or initiate one by going for a takedown, at that point try and flip him over onto his face, and from there apply a Choke Hold. Even as I start, I'm not sure how to model the 'flip him over' thing, but let's see how it goes.

A attacks B, and B attempts to parry. Since this is an Active Defense, PG doesn't help. Assuming A fails, and B parries, it's now B's turn. Note that high DX-based skill is the only thing that will help here with the Parry, or else a high DX+HT for Dodge.

Now B goes to attack A, using Judo or Wrestling to initiate a grapple. This is a To Hit roll; PG doesn't help you. Let's assume that B gets lucky, and scores a "Hit." A is now Grappled.

Back to A. He may attempt to grapple back, at -4 to DX because he's already grappled by someone else, or he may try to break free. PG doesn't help him grapple back; the return grip is an Attack and to-hit roll. If A has PG, then it WILL help him break B's grip; he'll need this because if B's grabbin' with both hands, he's at +5 to this contest; effectively A is at -4 to hit with a grapple (based on DX), and -5 to break free with ST. PG only helps the second case, and that extra skill to ST is needed to fight the grapple. Let's say B attempts to Break Free, but fails - but clearly, the defender has a much needed use for PG here, to get whatever bonuses his training grants to resist the grapple.

Back to B, who now wants to do a Takedown (p. B370), which is a Quick Contest of ST, DX, or the best Grappling skill. What the PG Perk means for either is that rather than ST, DX (if the grapple skills are lower than raw DX), or Skill, it becomes a contest of ST+Skill Bonus or DX+Skill bonus, ST, or DX (in case his skill is negative, but honestly, if you have Power Grappling, it's because it's not). So really, this means that if you are Strong, you use your skill to slam the dude to the ground. If you're Dextrous, you use your skill to trip him up. [1] On the resistance end, you can skillfully move (DX) or just push back in the right way. I don't see an issue here.

OK, so B goes for the Takedown, and let's assume A goes thump. ("...and they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor!"); Not only that, but B drops with him and begins Ground Fighting. A is likely Lying Down, while B is probably the equivalent of Kneeling or Sitting. (p. B551)

A has gone thump, and it's his turn. I'm not sure if B loses his grapple in the takedown; given my own training, I'm going to assume not. So A is grappled (at -4) and lying down (-4 attack, -3 defense) unless he's got a Ground Fighting technique (a good investment). Grappling back is a hit roll that will be at -8 and PG doesn't apply. Breaking free is a contest of ST at +5 for B...PG will apply here for both fighters, and is likely the best option for A, but we shouldn't expect it to work well.

Back to B, who will try and flip to rear mount position. I'd say this would be resolved as a QC of Grappling skill or ST vs Grappling Skill or ST, and PG WOULD apply here. A is at +4 because he controls the grapple, but I'd say that's all. Ironically, going for a Pin is almost EASIER; this is a direct contest of ST, and PG does apply. [2]

Let's say B is successful, and moves around to A's rear. A is deeply boned, here. He has the same choices (Attack at a massive penalty, or Break Free) as before, suffers additional penalties for Posture, and is now attacking an enemy behind him. I'm not even going to bother with A's options; he's bordering on Crispy Toast right now.

B goes for the Choke Hold, and since the roll to apply the hold is a to hit roll as per Martial Arts, PG doesn't apply. A can roll vs Grappling Skill -2 to Parry, at a penalty for Posture. PG again doesn't apply. If the attack succeeds, PG will apply in task resolution, as it should.

It seems to me here that the benefit of PG is to allow a normal-ST person who's also a skilled grappler to have a chance in HELL at thwarting the moves of just about ANYONE who successfully lands a Grapple on him.

On offense, the bonuses for successfully achieving the status of Grapple (and even more so Pin) render the PG bonuses almost superfluous.





[1] In this case, size and weight can matter. I would not be against converting weight in LBS to an equivalent ST score using the Basic Lift formula. Apply the delta to account for this as a bonus to the heavier fighter in the QC

[Bruno]

Sorry, addressing something from the second half of your post that I meant to hit above but got distracted:

Originally Posted by Icelander

I like the Perk, but I feel that it may incorporate too many effects for one trait. For one thing, I dislike how it benefits the cliched weak, but skilled, akidoka just as much, or more, than it benefits more realistic grappling MMA fighters with ST and DX scores closer to each other.

However, the guy who gets the most out of it is the cliched strong, not DeXtrous, grabby guy. Who may have DX 10, Wrestling 12, but once he gets his hands on you oh god. EDIT: All the points that Cliche the Akidoka spent on DX and high skill get dumped into ST for twice the numeric benefit after a grab is successfully initiated. In exchange for terrible chances to initiate a grab.

The cliche'd weak-but-skilled akidoka doesn't have a good ST. Being able to substitute a ST-based skill roll for straight ST on the parts that gain a benefit from Wrestling is certainly good for him, but substituting a ST-based skill roll for a DX-based skill roll for everything else is insane.

Big Slow Guy is just plain better off when he's using both features. He gets MORE benefit than Cliche, the Akidoka. Splitting it into two perks penalizes Big Slow Guy over Akidoka, when the perk is meant to benefit him over Akidoka.

Akidoka gets more out of the ST+Skill for ST part, but less out of the other part. It seems to average out to the same value - AND incidentally plays into the sister-cliche that skill can completely compensate for strength or even exceed it.

I would let Cliche the Akidoka call it another perk entirely if Power Grappling seemed to cause the player cognitive dissonance, but I wouldn't split it.

EDIT: Of course, if Cliche spent 24 points on his Judo skill, and Big Slow Guy spent 24 points on his wrestling skill, and just moved the points out of DX, he's much better off than the Skill 12 example. Power is obviously most useful when combined with accuracy.

[Bruno]

I like Big Slow Guys as a character archetype, so I think you're stuck with me babbling away in this thread. Sorry. I promise not to bring minotaurs into the discussion though.


Cliche, ST 10, DX 14, HT 12, Judo 18, Power Grappling perk.
Mr Big, ST 18, DX 10, HT 12, Wrestling 15, Power Grappling perk.

Mr Big has bad active defenses against Cliche grappling him - the Perk doesn't help him any, whereas Cliche's high skill and high DX mean that he's good at evading Mr Big's attempts to grab him (by parry and dodge) and he can burn skill on Deceptive Attack to further destroy Mr Big's defenses.

When Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big after parrying one of his crude attempts to grab, Mr Big is in trouble, because Cliche's attack is a to-hit roll vs active defense, and neither gets the benefit of the perk. Cliche is using Mr Bigs attack against him in support of the cliche. Working As Intended.

But if Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big from a grapple, Mr. Big becomes nigh immovable - it's a contest of Judo vs ST, DX or grappling skill, and Mr. Big gets to make a ST-based grappling skill roll due to his perk. Suddenly instead of being 18 vs 18, it's now 18 vs 22. If Cliche tries a damaging throw, it's even harder to pull off, and Mr. Big can probably ignore him as he yanks on Mr. Bigs arm. Cliche could substitute ST-based Judo, but that would be kind of stupid.

A more balanced build for Mr Big that gave him ST 17 and put those 8 extra points into Wrestling and put the two points into a bit of Brawling, or some more interesting perks, or a technique where his Power Grappling would be put to good use, like Wrench Arm, would obviously be more effective.

Obviously Cliche can use something like Wrench Arm after grappling Mr Big and get to use ST-based Judo instead of ST as the basis for his roll, but Mr Big has the advantage coming and going. Not only does Mr Big get to use a ST-based Wrestling roll (effective 22 vs 18) in his attempt to Break Free before Cliche goes for the twist, but on the Quick Contest Mr Big has a high ST to resist the twist. And Cliche's swing-crushing damage is pretty sad compared to Mr Bigs big pile of HP. Mr Big, on the other hand, has ST 18 (or 17), for a far more dangerous Swing damage, AND is preventing Cliche from escaping with ST-based-wrestling, AND is using ST-Based-Wrestling in the contest vs Cliche to twist his arm off.

[Bruno]

The far-more-normal "balanced build" MMA guys with close ST and DX scores get less benefit, but the perk really isn't meant to help them. They've got the advantage of having their character sheet better designed for fighting in the first place, unlike Cliche and Mr Big. ;) They can spend the perk elsewhere and enjoy being good at everything.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The far-more-normal "balanced build" MMA guys with close ST and DX scores get less benefit, but the perk really isn't meant to help them. They've got the advantage of having their character sheet better designed for fighting in the first place, unlike Cliche and Mr Big. ;) They can spend the perk elsewhere and enjoy being good at everything.

Yes, but less good than the specialist who got himself a Perk that eliminates his glaring flaw.

But, very well, I'm not saying that this Perk shouldn't exist.

My point is rather that it has two seperate benefits that don't necessarily go together in fiction or reality and that each one of them is broad and useful enough to justify calling it a Perk on its own.

To me, that's a good argument for splitting up the Perk.

Note that being allowed to switch ST rolls for ST-based skill rolls is not better for strong guys than it is for weak guys. It's utility is entirely indepedent of the ST score the character has and depends solely on the skill of the character. If the character has DX+3 or more in Sumo Wrestling or Wresting, this Perk benefits him. If he has DX+1 or more in Judo, this Perk benefits him. ST is irrelevant for this second benefit.

That's why I think it would make more sense for these to be two seperate Perks, one designed for strong guys and the other designed for skilled guys. The strong and skilled guys would take both, of course.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Bruno

When Cliche tries to judo throw Mr Big after parrying one of his crude attempts to grab, Mr Big is in trouble, because Cliche's attack is a to-hit roll vs active defense, and neither gets the benefit of the perk. Cliche is using Mr Bigs attack against him in support of the cliche. Working As Intended.

Side note - Kromm suggested in a PM back on 01-12-2009

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd say that since "more than twice your ST" is the limit on useful grappling, the same ought to go for Judo Throw. So a ST 6 halfling can throw up to a ST 12 man, a ST 23 ogre up to a ST 46 elephant, etc. It errs on the side of cinematic, but then most games do.

PS: As always, this is Approved For Sharing™.

This isn't so much a Harsh Realism suggestion so much as a Gentle Realism, unlike the default state of Judo throws which is more like Happily Cinematic.

A Harsh Realism suggestion might use a BL vs Wt. comparison except that weight has no character point cost and game design becomes sort of surrealist at that point (see also, fatness is a super power). If a Very Harsh Realism GM was enforcing a strict relationship between HP and weight you could do ST vs HP and tinker with the ratio to express relationship between the derived scores of BL and Wt. or just go straight to BL and Wt.

All that blathered on about, I might do (ST-2)*2 as the Harsh Realism setting, as ST-2 is the rating used for Knockback and thus makes me feel like it's less randomly chosen :D

Either way you juggle it, it starts looking better for Mr Big vs Cliche when you start clamping on constraints on the Judo-Throw-After-Parry

EDIT: old thread here

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Bruno

...
All that blathered on about, I might do (ST-2)*2 as the Harsh Realism setting, as ST-2 is the rating used for Knockback and thus makes me feel like it's less randomly chosen :D

Either way you juggle it, it starts looking better for Mr Big vs Cliche when you start clamping on constraints on the Judo-Throw-After-Parry

EDIT: old thread here

Though that breaks down on the lower end of strength.