Why evaluate

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by jallberg

What situations would that be?

Well, without turning this into a long diatribe about combat balance lets look at a few different cases.

Basic Attack considerations.

Skill 18 vs Eyes -10. With evaluate that becomes Eyes -7. Chance to beat an 8 = 26% chance to beat an 11 = 63%. Net gain, about 35-40%


More involved considerations:

Lets say, Attack 15 vs Defense 10, Attack 10 vs Defense 12

Attack 15 evaluates to Attack 18 and then DAs to 14 v 8. That gets him a net increase of about 15%

Two Swordsman of equal skill and one decides to Feint after 3 turns of evaluate.

The odds that he will win the quick contest before the evaluate are 45%. After the evaluate, 72%. 25% net gain. Althoguh Im not sure of how to phrase it mathematically right now, it also ups the expectation value on his margin of success too.

Nymdok

[Cybren]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Gotta be in melee range, or close enough to move and attack to use the Evaluate. B364

In the games I run, evaluate is really used as a non-combat combat option. If the players are attempting to size up opponents or count enemies, I let them take an evaluate.

In combat, it is useful in that it allows you to gain pluses (slowly and with a +3 cap) without costing you anything but time (you defend normally). That +3 can be very signifigant depending on where you and your opponent are on the curve.

Nymdok

Move and Attack is not a high-success rate option, typically

[Hastur]

Ubuktu has a move 9 and a pike, he stands 12 yards from his opponent and evaluates him. His opponent is armed with an ax and moves 5 yards forward on his turn. Ungbuktu uses an all out attack; feint and attack on his opponent. Good use of evaluate.

Milquart is known for his technique- hand grab parry. Ungbuktu decides that instead of attacking normally he will evaluate first and feint then deceptive attack.
good use of evaluate, though perhaps 2 feints would work better.

Milquart uses wait- and waits for ungbuktu to attack
Ungbuktu evaluates instead. Good use of evaluate

Ungbuktu picks up a flamethrower with 1 shot left, it is a jet with reach 40 yards. he can evaluate all day long before a swordsman reaches him. same applies for a dragons daily breath weapon maybe.

Ok so maybe evaluate is limited. how about some perks to improve them
C-C-Combo Breaker: you may evaluate while using the wait maneuvre.
Awareness: You may evaluate at a range of your Per. in yards

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

Gotta be in melee range, or close enough to move and attack to use the Evaluate. B364

TBone came up with a simple house rule that I've been dying to try that would (among other things) make Evaluate quite a bit more attractive:

If the attacker needs to Step or Move to get within striking Reach, the defender gains +2 on Active Defense vs the attack.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by jallberg

[This has probably been up before, but I cannot find a thread covering the topic.]

Why would I ever evaluate? Unless my effective skill is very low (~5) the chance of inflicting damage is bigger if I attack every turn.

Mogens

Case in point. Over in the Play by Post Forums, I had a foe who was on the other side of the room beating on another PC. As my big ranged attack was an area and would very likely kill a lot of us and them I was stuck with either trying to catch up with him despite his higher move) or evaluating.

I went with Evaluate and it really helped me overcome his Obscure defense.

Others pointed out whenever your attack is subject to a contest of skills, evaluate is very useful.

There are also times when you technically haven't entered the fight yet but are on the field.

Evaluating before you do enter the fight? Excellent Idea.

[Gigermann]

There is also the optional rule that Evaluate bonus applies to some defense as well (Countering Feints and Deceptive Attacks, MA100). Makes it a little more valuable in a skilled fight.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

There is also the optional rule that Evaluate bonus applies to some defense as well (Countering Feints and Deceptive Attacks, MA100). Makes it a little more valuable in a skilled fight.

It makes it a very good defensive maneuver, yes.

It still blows for offence, though.

[Gigermann]

Originally Posted by Icelander

It makes it a very good defensive maneuver, yes.

It still blows for offence, though.

Well, the OP was basically saying that the maneuver didn't have much value. This adds a bit. Food for thought anyway.

To the point of "Endurance," though:
One of my biggest issues with GURPS combat is the lack of lulls and whatnot—I've observed that people tend to play out GURPS one-second-round combat exactly like other systems that use more-than-one-second-rounds, in that they keep fighting constantly until the fight is over. It's just not very realistic, and results in fights that last a few seconds, whereas fights of a few minutes, which would be more realistic, would be impossibly difficult to run.

I like the idea of a mid-fight Fatigue effect (though I'm generally averse to adding new Attributes, like Endurance). I think if I were to implement something like this, I would mirror the existing rules, and assess a "partial" FP (1/10 FP maybe?), modified as usual, per Round of "strenuous" activity (something other than Evaluate, Do Nothing, etc.), and allow recovery of those partial points during lulls. This does have a side-effect, however, in that FP spent on Extra Effort, which cannot normally be recovered mid-combat, might realistically be considered a part of the same mechanic, and therefore recoverable—not sure whether that instance should be excepted.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

I like the idea of a mid-fight Fatigue effect (though I'm generally averse to adding new Attributes, like Endurance). I think if I were to implement something like this, I would mirror the existing rules, and assess a "partial" FP (1/10 FP maybe?), modified as usual, per Round of "strenuous" activity (something other than Evaluate, Do Nothing, etc.), and allow recovery of those partial points during lulls. This does have a side-effect, however, in that FP spent on Extra Effort, which cannot normally be recovered mid-combat, might realistically be considered a part of the same mechanic, and therefore recoverable—not sure whether that instance should be excepted.

An FP spent is an FP spent, which is why I have issue with the various suggestions that talk about affecting FP. It just doesn't strike me as elegant, which is something I feel that the endurance point notion has going for it. It feels more elegant to me.

Now if I was attempting to do something like this I would firstly fix a value for how long the default FP costs take to apply. The default is from 10 seconds to 3 minutes, which makes sense given battles can be quite variable in their duration. I personally wouldn't assess a duration less than 1 minute and would probably set it at 2 minutes, my benchmark being that combat shouldn't be more exerting than sprinting. At 1 minute an average man with medium encumbrance loses 3 FP for a battle, and an average 2 FP for sprinting. At 2 minutes, it an average 4 FP for sprinting (and 1 FP for running).

The next thing to work out is will the FP cost be paid at once, or will it be paid over the duration so fighters with higher encumbrance feel the FP loss sooner. At this point though it's probably best to leave this as standard and come back to it.

Now I was going to outline a system, but it was vaguely similar to what DouglesCole posted so I'll put it up when I've fleshed it out a little.