Basic Set Unarmed Combat boxing questions

[joppeknol]

Hello,

I'm inexperienced with GURPS having GM'ed only two sessions with it.

After a first session of with a GURPS-converted Call of Cthulhu 90s adventure (Eye of wicked sight), I would like to let my players get familiar with GURPS Combat and injuries. I'll probably adjust the amount of rules depending on their interest.

My idea was to play a flash-back of one of the PC's, in which he entered a bare knuckles boxing fight. I also want to use an hex-map for more visualization. Then I started to reread the rules and got some questions about it.

1) Is retreating dodge always possible, provided there is space behind you? It would lead to boxers stepping to and fro during defense and attack, which seems a bit silly. Do people rule that you can only retreat when you haven't spend a step in your turn? Why do or why don't?

2) Shouldn't boxing remove the -4 penalty for off-hand? It would seem more realistic to me, and it would make boxing more reasonable against brawling.

3) A left and a right first are two weapons, so doing you can strike twice with a -4 penalty (provided previous point or if your have karate skill). Rapid strike penalty -6 can be halved to 3 by spending 1 fp.

So, striking twice with the same hand would be less at a penalty than striking with the left and right hand. Is not including a similar 'extra effort' option on dual weapon attacks an oversight, or does it have a reason?

4) Do I read the rules on B420 correctly if I assume it is possible that a boxing match ends in 1 second with one of the fighter having lost only 1 hp? (but taking 1 hp on the face and rolling -5 on his HT roll to avoid knockdown). Of course, this will be what happens after I take 30 minutes to explain rules and situation ;-)

Thanks in advance,

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

1) Is retreating dodge always possible, provided there is space behind you? It would lead to boxers stepping to and fro during defense and attack, which seems a bit silly. Do people rule that you can only retreat when you haven't spend a step in your turn? Why do or why don't?

As you suggest, retreating dodge is not possible if you've already taken a step in your turn. Of course, boxers use retreating a lot, that's one of the reasons that they don't just stand still in the middle of the ring.

Originally Posted by joppeknol

2) Shouldn't boxing remove the -4 penalty for off-hand? It would seem more realistic to me, and it would make boxing more reasonable against brawling.

Unarmed Combat never takes a handedness penalty unless you use certain optional rules from Martial Arts.

Originally Posted by joppeknol

3) A left and a right first are two weapons, so doing you can strike twice with a -4 penalty (provided previous point or if your have karate skill). Rapid strike penalty -6 can be halved to 3 by spending 1 fp.

Yes, you can make unarmed Dual Weapon attacks. Yes, you can reduce the rapid strike penalty by spending FP if you're using the optional Extra Effort in Combat rules.

However, Rapid Strike does not mean it used the same hand. Again, in GURPS Martial Arts there is a great treatment of what Rapid Strike can include (hitting two targets with a single blow, for instance). Also, watch a boxer sometime, a left/left combination is often launched faster than a left/right.

Originally Posted by joppeknol

4) Do I read the rules on B420 correctly if I assume it is possible that a boxing match ends in 1 second with one of the fighter having lost only 1 hp? (but taking 1 hp on the face and rolling -5 on his HT roll to avoid knockdown).

Nope, this is incorrect. IDHMBWM, but I believe it takes a Major Wound to the head to force this health roll. This would be significantly more than 1 point, and difficult to do with a single blow. (Boxing gloves also decrease damage by 1, again, in Martial Arts.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by aesir23

As you suggest, retreating dodge is not possible if you've already taken a step in your turn.

This is a houserule apparently used by some. It is not at all RAW.

Originally Posted by aesir23

Nope, this is incorrect. IDHMBWM, but I believe it takes a Major Wound to the head to force this health roll. This would be significantly more than 1 point, and difficult to do with a single blow. (Boxing gloves also decrease damage by 1, again, in Martial Arts.

Nope, you have to roll for knockdown any time you are struck in the head for enough damage to cause a shock penalty.

However, it wouldn't be at -5 unless it was a major wound.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

About question 4
Nope, you have to roll for knockdown any time you are struck in the head for enough damage to cause a shock penalty.
However, it wouldn't be at -5 unless it was a major wound.

Yes.

And, so a 1 point of damage injury in the head can stun you or even knock you out if it is a critical failure or if the margin of failure is 5 or more (see page 420).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by aesir23

About question 3
Yes, you can make unarmed Dual Weapon attacks. Yes, you can reduce the rapid strike penalty by spending FP if you're using the optional Extra Effort in Combat rules.
However, Rapid Strike does not mean it used the same hand. Again, in GURPS Martial Arts there is a great treatment of what Rapid Strike can include (hitting two targets with a single blow, for instance). Also, watch a boxer sometime, a left/left combination is often launched faster than a left/right.

I fully do agree here again.

There is a karate technique, named "morote tsuki" which allows to strike with two hands exactly at the same time. It is quite easy to do after a parry, and hard to defend against... It can be used in a modern Call of Cthulhu adventure. But I never see any boxer use it. It is very specific to some karate and kungfu schools and, of course, it was not known by westerners during the roaring twenties (except people with an asiatic origin, of course). But, since you are playing in a modern campaign, no problem for your player characters...

[Anaximander]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I fully do agree here again.

There is a karate technique, named "morote tsuki" which allows to strike with two hands exactly at the same time. It is quite easy to do after a parry, and hard to defend against... It can be used in a modern Call of Cthulhu adventure. But I never see any boxer use it. It is very specific to some karate and kungfu schools and, of course, it was not known by westerners during the roaring twenties (except people with an asiatic origin, of course). But, since you are playing in a modern campaign, no problem for your player characters...

This kind of punching is illegal in boxing today. Laurent Dauthuille, Jake LaMotta and Francois Botha all got in trouble for it rather frequently. Lots of punching styles and locations are off limits. Of course rules could be very different in a bare knuckle illicit match, and in the past the rules have been different. Uppercuts were very popular until they were outlawed. Also, even in a professional match, nothing is illegal if the referee didn't see it!

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Gollum

There is a karate technique, named "morote tsuki" which allows to strike with two hands exactly at the same time. It is quite easy to do after a parry, and hard to defend against... It can be used in a modern Call of Cthulhu adventure. But I never see any boxer use it. It is very specific to some karate and kungfu schools and, of course, it was not known by westerners during the roaring twenties (except people with an asiatic origin, of course). But, since you are playing in a modern campaign, no problem for your player characters...

In Hsing-I (and previously in Wing Chun) I've learned many techniques that equate to a punch and a kick simultaneously, I believe this is more common than two punches or two kicks.

I'd like to point out for the OP, since no one else has made it explicit, that improving the Dual Weapon Attack technique is generally considered cinematic by RAW (although attempting it at default is realistic), as is Flurry of Blows.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I'd like to point out for the OP, since no one else has made it explicit, that improving the Dual Weapon Attack technique is generally considered cinematic by RAW (although attempting it at default is realistic), as is Flurry of Blows.

True enough, but then you can always just increase your base skill by 4 and improve your DWA default and your Rapid Strike and your Deceptive Attack and, well, everything else. It may cost you 16 CP instead of 5, but it'll be far more generally useful.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

True enough, but then you can always just increase your base skill by 4 and improve your DWA default and your Rapid Strike and your Deceptive Attack and, well, everything else. It may cost you 16 CP instead of 5, but it'll be far more generally useful.

That's comparing apples and orchards. You could buy off the DWA default, buy two more levels of base skill, and still have only spent 13 points.

[Anaximander]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Unarmed Combat never takes a handedness penalty unless you use certain optional rules from Martial Arts.

Aesir23, do you have a citation for that?