Basic Set Unarmed Combat boxing questions

[Anaximander]

Indeed it is, sir. I think this is a house rule that could be great success, if a bit complex in terms of keeping track of step use.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Oh! A lot of people answered you as I was writing my own answer... I made a good choice to write it question by question rather than all in a raw... Thus, I can avoid repeating what they already wrote...

I do agree!

The rules, in the paragraph "Attack" (Basic Set, page 365) say: "Movement: Step.", and not "Steps"; and, in the paragraph "Retreat" (Basic Set, page 377), they say: "you must move away from your attacker: at least one yard... exactly as for a step", which leads me to the conclusion that it is not just a house rule. But it is still an interpretation of the rules. So once can disagree.

The full quote "you must move away from your attacker: at least one yard, but not more than 1/10 your Move - exactly as for a step (see Step, p.368)". This does not imply that Retreat and Step are the same, only that their maximum distance is the same. Also, a Step preventing your Retreat doesn't mesh with the fact that moving faster than your Basic Move is specifically mentioned as preventing a Retreat.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

The full quote "you must move away from your attacker: at least one yard, but not more than 1/10 your Move - exactly as for a step (see Step, p.368)". This does not imply that Retreat and Step are the same, only that their maximum distance is the same.

Wow! A good point here…

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Also, a Step preventing your Retreat doesn't mesh with the fact that moving faster than your Basic Move is specifically mentioned as preventing a Retreat.

And another good point…

But note than when you all-out attack, you can only move forward (up to half your move), which prevent you to retreat in most of cases. When you move and attack, you cannot any more retreat. A possible interpretation: you have use all your move and then cannot anymore move.

Having said that, reading again the first sentence of the rules about retreat, I see clearly: “ “Retreat” is not a seperate defense but an option than you may add to any active defense against a melee attack.” So, I may be wrong, I may be wrong…

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

1) Is retreating dodge always possible, provided there is space behind you? It would lead to boxers stepping to and fro during defense and attack, which seems a bit silly. Do people rule that you can only retreat when you haven't spend a step in your turn? Why do or why don't?

It specifically mentions in Retreat a number of conditions that prevent you from retreating. One of those is travelling faster than your Basic Move. Taking a Step isn't faster than your Basic Move, and your Step and your Retreat aren't the same thing. They just have the same distance.

2) Shouldn't boxing remove the -4 penalty for off-hand? It would seem more realistic to me, and it would make boxing more reasonable against brawling.

As I understand it, though it certainly isn't clear, non of the Unarmed combat skills take off-hand penalties in Basic. This is supported by the Harsh Realism Rules for Unarmed Fighters from Martial Arts.

3) A left and a right first are two weapons, so doing you can strike twice with a -4 penalty (provided previous point or if your have karate skill). Rapid strike penalty -6 can be halved to 3 by spending 1 fp.

So, striking twice with the same hand would be less at a penalty than striking with the left and right hand. Is not including a similar 'extra effort' option on dual weapon attacks an oversight, or does it have a reason?

Dual Weapon Attack is a Technique you can buy off, and so can use at zero penalty for no FP. Also, Flurry of Blows (and the other Extra Effort in combat options) are both optional and cinematic. Even with it available, you're not always going to be in situations where you want to spend 1 FP.

[Anaximander]

1) Yes it always is, as long as you are able to defend you are always allowed to use the retreat option, albeit only once per turn (B377). Speaking as a boxer, this is entirely realistic and not at all silly. Footwork is the most important thing in evading your opponent and has been a part of standard boxing instruction since at least September 7, 1892 when "Gentleman Jim" Corbett defeated John L. Sullivan at the Olympic Club in New Orleans using superior agility to dodge Sullivan's charges and counter with quick jabs. The rules do not forbid you from retreating if you have taken a step. I believe the once per round limitation on retreating is a good enough rule, so that's what I use. The question remains for you, I'm sure, why would you not retreat if you could? Well, drawing on my own boxing experience again I can tell you that a great strategy in boxing is to force your opponent back against the edge of the ring. Not only does that make it impossible for them to retreat, but it forces them onto the defenses where you can pummel them. Consider adding a damage bonus on people hit while against a barrier. Sort of a added impact thing.

2) You certainly can if you want to. But there's separate training that goes into coordinating and strengthening your off-hand. People naturally favor one arm over the other and it takes time to get the necessary skill to attack as well with your left as your right. I suppose you could say that is part of the boxing skill's training and thus justifies it's greater difficulty than brawling. Although the greater damage increase and superior retreat bonus to defense is likely the existing justification for that.

3) Yes it does, unless you've spent the character points to eliminate this penalty. That neat little "one-two" punch is in fact a part of a boxer's training and takes time to master. Once you do though, it's very effective in both a boxing match and a street fight.

4) I can see there is some confusion about the rules on B420 for you. I take it from your question that you seem to think being knocked down qualifies you as losing a boxing match. This is rarely the case. No Marquess of Queensbury Rules boxing match can end in one second. Even if somehow one of the fighters is knocked out dead at the moment the match begins, he must be counted down for ten full seconds before he is considered having lost. As soon as the fighter begins to get up he is not being counted down anymore and the other fighter must stand back until the referee signals the match begun again. Furthermore, the -5 on the HT roll only applies to major wounds. So a serious wound could only be inflicted with 1 HP of damage on a character with 2 HP total. The average 10 HP character would only sustain a major wound to the face if struck for 6 HP of damage.

I hope this information was helpful. If you're interested in further information on Boxing in GURPS I highly recommend GURPS Martial Arts. Good luck with your campaign!

[PK]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

1) Is retreating dodge always possible, provided there is space behind you?

Almost always possible. It's important to remember that you cannot retreat after a Move and Attack, and that you can only retreat once per turn against a single foe -- your defense bonus only applies against that foe!

It would lead to boxers stepping to and fro during defense and attack, which seems a bit silly.

Silly? You've just described a modern boxing match to a tee. In fact, the arguably greatest advancement in boxing technique was the addition of footwork -- nimble fighters who could dance back and forth all began defeating those who stood and pummeled.

Do people rule that you can only retreat when you haven't spend a step in your turn? Why do or why don't?

Some do, sure. I don't, because a good fighter should be able to remain fluid and mobile in a fight, and retreating simulates that. Also, it makes a fight versus one person vastly different than a fight against two or more. When you suddenly can't retreat against every attack, and you're used to relying on that bonus, running away becomes an attractive option.

2) Shouldn't boxing remove the -4 penalty for off-hand? It would seem more realistic to me, and it would make boxing more reasonable against brawling.

Actually, all unarmed skills ignore the "off-hand penalty." This is not made very clear in the Basic Set, unfortunately. Martial Arts clarified it.

3) A left and a right first are two weapons, so doing you can strike twice with a -4 penalty (provided previous point or if your have karate skill). Rapid strike penalty -6 can be halved to 3 by spending 1 fp.

So, striking twice with the same hand would be less at a penalty than striking with the left and right hand. Is not including a similar 'extra effort' option on dual weapon attacks an oversight, or does it have a reason?

Yes, because DWAs can be bought off as a technique in many games. So typically, any fighter who uses them frequently will do so. That said, it'd be perfectly reasonable for you to allow Flurry of Blows to interact with DWA, bringing the penalty to -2.

4) Do I read the rules on B420 correctly if I assume it is possible that a boxing match ends in 1 second with one of the fighter having lost only 1 hp? (but taking 1 hp on the face and rolling -5 on his HT roll to avoid knockdown).

No, that's not quite correct. A 1-hp wound to the face requires a HT roll, not a HT-5 roll. The -5 is for a major wound to the face -- e.g., a HP 10 man must take 6+ points of injury.

So an average HT 10 man who takes 1 point of injury to the face must roll HT. He has a 50% chance of being fine, a 45% chance of being stunned, and a 5% chance of passing out. In other words, that's enough injury to cause what doctors would call a concussion. If the same man took 6 points of damage to the face, he'd almost certainly be stunned and would have a 50% chance of passing out -- and in the real world, an injury on that scale would probably disfigure him in some way and put him in the hospital for days.