Are quirks officially counted as disadvantages?

[Langy]

Another confusing aspect is that quirks are listed as in addition to the disadvantage limit for most character templates with defined disadvantage limits (Action, Dungeon Fantasy). Makes it seem like the game authors intended quirks to be counted separately from the disadvantage limit, especially since Kromm himself wrote both of those supplements.

[trooper6]

One point I want to bring up is that while there was a shift between 3e and 4e regarding if Quirks are disadvantages (3e No, 4e Yes), there was also a major shift in Disad Limits.

In 3e, PCs were generally limited to -40pts in Disads and -5 Quirks. 4e's standard limiter is one half of the PCs point total. A 100cp 3e character (with a negative point value limited to -40/-5) translates to a 150cp 4e character...which has a negative point value limit of -75cp...which is more than enough of a boost to take care of buying down Perception, Quirks, etc.

The issue here is mostly that the game the GM is running is ridiculously low point.

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by trooper6

One point I want to bring up is that while there was a shift between 3e and 4e regarding if Quirks are disadvantages (3e No, 4e Yes), there was also a major shift in Disad Limits.

In 3e, PCs were generally limited to -40pts in Disads and -5 Quirks. 4e's standard limiter is one half of the PCs point total. A 100cp 3e character (with a negative point value limited to -40/-5) translates to a 150cp 4e character...which has a negative point value limit of -75cp...

While the "baseline" starting point value for 4E is 150 vs. 3E's 100, I think that's a shift in focus to more competent baseline starting characters, not a statement than a 100cp 3E character is equivalent to a 150CP 4E character

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

While the "baseline" starting point value for 4E is 150 vs. 3E's 100, I think that's a shift in focus to more competent baseline starting characters, not a statement than a 100cp 3E character is equivalent to a 150CP 4E character

It's a bit of both, I suspect. Most 3e characters, if translated "as is" are going to see some point inflation -- the standard (for my old groups) IQ 12 DX 12 just got 40 points more expensive, to start with!

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Langy

Another confusing aspect is that quirks are listed as in addition to the disadvantage limit for most character templates with defined disadvantage limits (Action, Dungeon Fantasy). Makes it seem like the game authors intended quirks to be counted separately from the disadvantage limit, especially since Kromm himself wrote both of those supplements.

Yeah. I certainly thought they didn't count against the limit, because every time I see character creation guidelines they're phrased something like 200/-50/-5.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Ack

Page 162, under 'Quirks'.

"Necessarily" is defined by the GM. What did your GM say/rule about Quirks in his campaign.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

Another confusing aspect is that quirks are listed as in addition to the disadvantage limit for most character templates with defined disadvantage limits (Action, Dungeon Fantasy). Makes it seem like the game authors intended quirks to be counted separately from the disadvantage limit, especially since Kromm himself wrote both of those supplements.

Reduced Attributes and Secondary Characteristics are listed in their respected sections as well, this is organizational, and doesn't relate to disadvantage limits at all. If you mean that some published Templates violate suggested disadvantage limits by including Quirks, then that is probably errata and should be submitted.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Yeah. I certainly thought they didn't count against the limit, because every time I see character creation guidelines they're phrased something like 200/-50/-5.

Can you point to an example of that format in a published 4e source? Basic 162 limits Quirks by number to 5, this is unrelated to their effect on the disadvantage limit. Similarly PU2, MA (and all books with MA format styles) similarly limits Perks by number. I suggest that that format really ought to be 200/8/=50/-5 for consistency.

[Langy]

Reduced Attributes and Secondary Characteristics are listed in their respected sections as well, this is organizational, and doesn't relate to disadvantage limits at all. If you mean that some published Templates violate suggested disadvantage limits by including Quirks, then that is probably errata and should be submitted.

That is not at all what I was talking about.

What I was referring to was that they suggest disadvantage limits of 50 *plus* five points in quirks.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Langy

What I was referring to was that they suggest disadvantage limits of 50 *plus* five points in quirks.

The box on Dungeon Fantasy 15 does seem to contradict with the Basic Set. Perhaps it's errata?

[Celjabba]

The way i read DF p15,

Suggested limit=(50+5)

wich confirm that quirks do count against the limit.
Simply, that box and other xxx/yyy/5 remind that among your disads, you can take up to 5 quirks, but that if you don't take them, those 5 points are unavailable for other disads.

If i understand correctly

Celjabba