Trained by a Master cost

[Whitewings]

I've thought for a long time that "Trained by a Master" is a bit over-priced at 40 points. Compare it to Magery 3, which is 35 points: To take full advantage of Magery requires IQ 14 and one point per spell; even with the standard 100 points starting (plus 40 points in Disads and 5 in Quirks), you can fairly easily create a competent mage. But Trained By a Mster, which is more expensive, is actually less useful: To make full use of it requires DX 14, HT 14, and you have to buy a *lot* of Hard or Very Hard skills to high levels (usually 20+) to buy the cinematic skills Trained by a Master allows. Also, the advantage is either relatively common (in a cinematic martial arts game) or simply unavailable (in most other genres). So why is it so expensive, given the additional costs needed to use the skills it allows? Personally, I'd call it 15 to 20 points (Chambara rules do give an advantage, but not *that* much of an advantage). Opinions?

[Dwarfolo]

And how would you price Combat Reflex then?

[NorthSaber]

First, Trained By a Master is 30 points, at least in my Gurps Characters. Benefits:
- only half penalty with rapid strikes
- only half penalty when parrying more than once per turn
- access to near-supernatural skills

The first two benefits cannot (AFAIK) be attained through any other means, save Weapon Master which is basically a slightly different version of the same advantage (you could take Weapon Master: Unarmed, for a cheaper version, with damage bonuses but without access to the better skills).

I also think that one major reason the advantage is so expensive is to function as a kind of Unusual Background, limiting it to high-level NPCs and PCs. Imagine if the advantage cost only 15 points, lots of commoner NPCs could afford it as well...

[EvilKobra]

Originally Posted by NorthSaber

First, Trained By a Master is 30 points, at least in my Gurps Characters. Benefits:
- only half penalty with rapid strikes
- only half penalty when parrying more than once per turn
- access to near-supernatural skills

The first two benefits cannot (AFAIK) be attained through any other means, save Weapon Master which is basically a slightly different version of the same advantage (you could take Weapon Master: Unarmed, for a cheaper version, with damage bonuses but without access to the better skills).

I also think that one major reason the advantage is so expensive is to function as a kind of Unusual Background, limiting it to high-level NPCs and PCs. Imagine if the advantage cost only 15 points, lots of commoner NPCs could afford it as well...

Agreed. But then, why not split it into "Weapon Master: Unarmed", which provides the combat bonuses, plus "Unusual Background: Trained by a Master" which -along with WM- is a prerequisite for those cinematic skills?

It's just that I wouldn't price the combat bonuses at 30cp; and if I want the bonuses but not those VH cinematic skills, I don't think I should be forced to pay the extra cp for the right to learn them. It's just not consistent with the general modularity of GURPS - mostly they've done a good job of getting rid of the all-or-nothing packaged deals.

[Nikolai]

Originally Posted by NorthSaber

First, Trained By a Master is 30 points, at least in my Gurps Characters.

Whitewings seems to be talking about 3e.

[Whitewings]

Originally Posted by Nikolai

Whitewings seems to be talking about 3e.

I didn't read Characters as carefully as I should have, so yes, I was thinknig of the 3e version.

[NorthSaber]

Originally Posted by Kobra

Agreed. But then, why not split it into "Weapon Master: Unarmed", which provides the combat bonuses, plus "Unusual Background: Trained by a Master" which -along with WM- is a prerequisite for those cinematic skills?

This would be the ideal situation - or rather, when presenting package deal advantages such as these, provide a cost breakdown for GM-specific customization. The problem is, some advantages are expensive and certain features are only available through those packages, and they are perhaps balanced keeping the total cost in mind; as I mentioned in the aspected magery thread, unique abilities that are a small part of a larger advantage come with an invisible built-in unusual background cost as an opportunity cost - even though characters aren't paying for the UBG to get the ability, they have to be able to pay the main advantage itself, which limits even the tiny part to "high-level" characters.

Still, the whole built-in UBG-thinking is something that should be weeded out from Gurps, it just doesn't match the ideology.

Personally, I'd split up Trained By a Master as follows:
- half penalty to rapid strike (5 points)
- half penalty to multiple parries (5 points)
- UBG to gain access to the special skills (20 points, roughly 1-2 points per skill, and those are some kick-ass skills!)

I believe 3rd edition Trained By a Master did cost 40 points, but didn't you get like 20 points back to be used in those special skills? This, again, was one of those package-deal opportunity-UBG-costs I was talking about.

[Nikolai]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

I didn't read Characters as carefully as I should have, so yes, I was thinknig of the 3e version.

Not only the point cost of TbaM has changed in 4e: "100 points starting (plus 40 points in Disads and 5 in Quirks)" are no longer standard and the Chambara rules are gone. (They have been replaced by the advantage Extra Attack, the Melee Attack Option "Rapid Strike" (p. B370) and the rules for "Number of Parries" on p. B376. NorthSaber already mentioned how characters with TbaM get benefits here.)

[Nikolai]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

Also, the advantage is either relatively common (in a cinematic martial arts game) or simply unavailable (in most other genres).

In my fantasy campaign which I would consider pretty "standard", it is neither common nor unavailable. There are a few people who have it (PCs among them), but not too many.

[griffin]

Originally Posted by Whitewings

I've thought for a long time that "Trained by a Master" is a bit over-priced at 40 points. Compare it to Magery 3, which is 35 points:
...

Note, according to Kromm for GURPS 4e, Martial Arts will have LOTS of options requiring TbaM which will help justify the cost.

See this thread for details.