Revisiting Talents for Combat

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In general, 10 or 15 point Talents for weapons have almost no abuse potential. Raising DX tends to be more efficient and hence greater munchkin-bait anyway. And in general, no character can use more than a couple of weapon skills at once, so point-optimisers could just spend the points on their primary weapon skill anyway.

I find such Talents the cheapest way to represent grizzled old warriors who have know-how and transferable techiques from so many weapons that their defaults and skills are all higher than a nimble beginner's. There's a point of diminishing returns when raising a number of weapon skills and if a GM wants to encourage warriors who are competent with a range of weapons and not unrealistically awesome with one and mediocre with all others, he either has to allow Talents to do so or have players who are willing to sacrifice dozens of points for concept and realism (and thus effectively penalise good roleplaying).

That DX is more efficient than a 15 pt weapon Talent does not mean that the latter cannot be abusive, and you do not have to allow either as a GM.

I would prefer to have players pay the cost for desired levels of skills directly, rather than use optimization techniques *shrug*

[martinl]

I am mostly a "build to concept, points are at best for eep accounting later" sort of guy, and I like talents as a way of adding character definition. Ninja talent would be fine with me, if it came with a decent explanation. ("I was raised by a secret mountain clan of ninjas who have developed a comprehensive ninja philosophy that sees all ninja things as simple extrapolations of three core ninja principles" would be fine in a wuxia campaign.)

That said, it's not much different from the Ninja! bang skill, or even just buying a lot of DX and ninja skills. GURPS can usually do things several different ways.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

To do the math for the doubters, 20 pts spent on DX gets you plus one on all DX Skills instead of just weapons.

However, it also gets you the equivalent of 5 pts spent on buying up Basic Speed which boosts Dodge, ground move and place in the initiative order. That's a great bargain compared to the alternatives for raising those independently as well.

So munchkins never buy a 15 pt Talent that can be replaced by a pt of DX. Even a 10 pt Talent looks marginal.

I've actually found very few character builds where any canon Talent is part of an efficient build. If it is it's because of the pt break you get on buying high levels of that Talent. 1 level almost never makes comparative sense.

Also munchkining a character you tend to not go for breadth of skills, which talents give you.

[Zed]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Ninja: You are a damn ninja! Acrobatics, Acting, Axe/Mace, Camouflage, Disguise, Garrote, Holdout, Judo, Karate, Knife, Lockpicking, Poisons, Savoir-Faire, Shadowing, Shortsword, Staff, Stealth, Tactics, Tonfa, and Traps.. Reaction bonus: other assassins or thieves. 15 points/level

Would there be a equal reaction penalty to Pirates?
Yaarg!

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Zed

Would there be a equal reaction penalty to Pirates?
Yaarg!

That would require the pirates to know that they are ninjas, and therefore not very good ninjas, so no.

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That would require the pirates to know that they are ninjas, and therefore not very good ninjas, so no.

It should be obvious, since the ninjas will be wearing black pajamas.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

It should be obvious, since the ninjas will be wearing black pajamas.

And holding up shrub branches to hide behind.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

So, I thought I'd next make a few weapons talents and see what you thought was broken, and what you thought was reasonable. They're all built with the standard rules, except that the no combat skills for talents rule is broken. Also, you can guess who would give a reaction bonus.

Fencing Talent [10/Level]: Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shield (Buckler), Shield (Cloak), and Smallsword

Unbalanced Weapon Talent [10/Level]: Axe/Mace, Flail, Polearm, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace), Two-Handed Flail

Blade Talent [10/Level]: Broadsword, Knife, Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Smallsword, Thrown Weapon (Knife), Two-Handed Sword

Flexible Weapon Talent [5/Level]: Flail, Garrote, Kusari, Two-Handed Flail, Whip

Poky Weapon Talent [10/Level]: Lance, Polearm, Spear, Spear Thrower, Thrown Weapon (Spear), Thrown Weapon (Dart)

Unarmed Talent [10/Level]: Boxing, Brawling, Judo, Karate, Sumo Wrestling, Wrestling

Throwing Talent [10/Level]: Net, Throwing, Throwing Art, Thrown Weapon (Any)

Primitive Projector Weapon Talent [5/Level]: Bow, Blowgun, Crossbow, Sling, Spear Thrower

Shooting Talent [15/Level]: Beam Weapons (Any), Gunner (Any), Guns (Any)

I have no specific problem with these, except that sometimes the logic isn't clear (why someone talented with the Staff wouldn't be talented with the Spear for instance.) Also, your price for Shooting talent ignores the fact that multiple Specialties are considered 1 skill for the purposes of calculating the cost of a talent.

I might break it down this way:

Close Combat Talent (10/level): Boxing, Brawling, Garrote, Karate, Knife, Judo, Main Gauche, Sumo Wrestling, Tonfa, Wrestling

Medium Range Weapon Talent (10/level): Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Flail, Force Sword, Jitte/Sai, Rapier, Saber, Shield, Short Sword, Small Sword.

Reach Weapon Talent (10/level): Kusari, Lance, Polearm, Spear, Staff, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Two-Handed Flail, Two-Handed Sword, Whip

Hurled Weapon Talent (10/level): Bola, Net, Spear Thrower, Throwing, Throwing Art, Thrown Weapon (All)

Shooting Talent (10/level): Beam Weapons (all), Blowpipe, Bow, Crossbow, Guns (all), Gunner (All).

For perhaps more realism and more balance, I don't really have a problem with:

Melee Talent 15/Level

Ranged Talent 15/Level

either.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Some of these are okay, but I'd edit a couple.

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Fencing Talent [10/Level]: Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shield (Buckler), Shield (Cloak), and Smallsword

I'm not sure I'd include the Bucker and Cloak skills in this one. It seems logical to me that a talent with fencing weapons would include the parrying elements, since fencing weapons are strong on the defense, but I'm less certain of the blocking weapons. I'd knock it down to 5 points/level, and include just Main-Gauche, Rapier, Saber, and Smallsword.

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Unbalanced Weapon Talent [10/Level]: Axe/Mace, Flail, Polearm, Two-Handed Axe/Mace, Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace), Two-Handed Flail

I'd cut Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace) here - despite it being an unbalanced weapon, I think the actions of throwing a weapon, compared to attacking with it in melee, is different enough to leave it off. Also, you could probably add a note about it applying to Two-Handed Sword skill when used with a weapon that becomes unready after an attack.

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Poky Weapon Talent [10/Level]: Lance, Polearm, Spear, Spear Thrower, Thrown Weapon (Spear), Thrown Weapon (Dart)

Again, I'd cut the ranged weapons.

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Unarmed Talent [10/Level]: Boxing, Brawling, Judo, Karate, Sumo Wrestling, Wrestling

I'd break this down into a striking talent, covering Boxing, Karate, and Brawling when using punches, and a grappling talent, covering Judo, Sumo Wrestling, Wrestling, and Brawling when using grapples.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by aesir23

your price for Shooting talent ignores the fact that multiple Specialties are considered 1 skill for the purposes of calculating the cost of a talent.

I don't believe that's the case. Basic has the Artificer talent, which gives a bonus to all specialties of Electronics Repair and Engineering. If it counted each specialty separately, Artificer would be far more than the 10/level it's listed at. What you may be thinking of is that some talents only give their bonus to one specific speciality within a skill, in which case it still counts as a single skill.