Alternatives to turn-based combat

[Jason]

I tend not to feature combat scenes too heavily when I run In Nomine (or any games, really) because I really don't like the way turn-based combat usually plays out. I was reminded of this last weekend, when one of my regular players took the helm for a one-shot. We all had fun, but, as in most tabletop RPGs, the combat basically became a process of taking turns rolling dice until the bad guy died, spending most of the time waiting for our turn.

This is probably a question I should take to the general roleplaying forum, but I wanted to bounce the question off In Nomine people first, as that's the system I'll be modifying in search of alternatives. I like the d666 mechanic in general, and would like to keep using it for combat, but I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for how to spice up combat scenes so it doesn't drag on too long, and so everyone feels more constantly involved.

So far, I've been considering the following:

1. Lowered Body Hits

I think I will use the alternate Body Hit calculation from the Game Master's Guide, but a less kind version. I'm considering:
Strength + Corporeal Forces + (5x Vessel or Toughness)

This is in a low-power game, too, where the most Forces any PC has is 7. I'll probably say that everyone gets at least +5 at the end (even mortals who don't purchase Toughness), but we're looking at some pretty long fights, based on how damage seemed calculated in our last game, if we go by normal damage calculation.

2. Lethal Strikes

Alternatively (or in addition), I may rule that any hit that does over 6 damage in one strike is automatically crippling, if not fatal. Again, this is a low-powered campaign, so I don't think my PCs will be busting out moves with giant power bonuses most of the time, but this could be a way to keep things moving and feel less like you're just slowly chipping away at hit points.

3. Limited Dodge

I'm also considering making it so that you can only roll to Dodge once between each of your turns, unless you're doing nothing that entire turn but dodging (Full Dodge). This would be even easier to keep track of if I do this last thing…

4. Simultaneous Combat Scenes

The big thing that my players complain about regarding combat is having to wait for their turn. I'm going to try to make it feel like their turns all happen at once.

When a fight is right about to begin, the players will get about 5-10 seconds to privately decide what they're each going to do (unless they have the Song of Battle or something that stops time, of course). Each of them will have a paper tetrahedron with their options on each side: Power, Attack, Dodge, or Other. At the end of the short break, whatever side they have facing front will be what their character does that turn. Everything is presumed to happen simultaneously, and will be narrated in sequence clockwise starting with the character who has the highest Agility. If one player's plan is screwed up by something unexpected that just happened in another player's plan, they'll just have to adjust on the fly.

It's still pretty close to turn-based, but I'm hoping it feels simultaneous and immediate enough that they'll be hinging on each other's descriptions instead of just waiting to hear whether they guy they were gonna attack is dead yet when their turn comes along. I don't know if this will introduce a sense of chaotic action or just chaos, but I am considering giving it a try, and wondering whether anybody has alternatives they've tried.

Any feedback or other ideas? Lay ’em on me.

[Elberon]

How about lifting a bit from Feng Shui - the action tracker.
Change initiative to 10 + lowest of Ethereal and Corporeal forces + d6 (this total is now called Action Level)
person with the highest AL goes first
Punches, kicks* etc use up 3 AL
Melee attacks use up 5 AL
Ranged weapons 6 AL$
Songs 3+ essence spent
When the first person drops below 0 add 10 to everyones AL and everyone knocks off a number of hits equal to the number of times they have been hit by non punch / kick£


*knuckle dusters would be mellee as would nimbus corpus claws etc
$just to keep up theme of man-o-mano being
£ some one who has been stabbed twice, shot once and punch 4 times would loose another 3 hit points when ever some one dips below 0 AL
This should mean on average of 5 punch attacks, 3 mellee or 2 ranged attacks before someone dips below 0 AL.

It does tend to speed up combat make who's going next more flexible and everyone involved in the combat. You can also change the cost of each attack to change the flavour of the game (uping mellee and dropping ranged will even up the usefulness of those attacks)

Chris

[enpeze]

Originally Posted by Jason

I tend not to feature combat scenes too heavily when I run In Nomine (or any games, really) because I really don't like the way turn-based combat usually plays out. I was reminded of this last weekend, when one of my regular players took the helm for a one-shot. We all had fun, but, as in most tabletop RPGs, the combat basically became a process of taking turns rolling dice until the bad guy died, spending most of the time waiting for our turn.

This is probably a question I should take to the general roleplaying forum, but I wanted to bounce the question off In Nomine people first, as that's the system I'll be modifying in search of alternatives. I like the d666 mechanic in general, and would like to keep using it for combat, but I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for how to spice up combat scenes so it doesn't drag on too long, and so everyone feels more constantly involved.

So far, I've been considering the following:

1. Lowered Body Hits

I think I will use the alternate Body Hit calculation from the Game Master's Guide, but a less kind version. I'm considering:
Strength + Corporeal Forces + (5x Vessel or Toughness)

This is in a low-power game, too, where the most Forces any PC has is 7. I'll probably say that everyone gets at least +5 at the end (even mortals who don't purchase Toughness), but we're looking at some pretty long fights, based on how damage seemed calculated in our last game, if we go by normal damage calculation.

2. Lethal Strikes

Alternatively (or in addition), I may rule that any hit that does over 6 damage in one strike is automatically crippling, if not fatal. Again, this is a low-powered campaign, so I don't think my PCs will be busting out moves with giant power bonuses most of the time, but this could be a way to keep things moving and feel less like you're just slowly chipping away at hit points.

3. Limited Dodge

I'm also considering making it so that you can only roll to Dodge once between each of your turns, unless you're doing nothing that entire turn but dodging (Full Dodge). This would be even easier to keep track of if I do this last thing…

4. Simultaneous Combat Scenes

The big thing that my players complain about regarding combat is having to wait for their turn. I'm going to try to make it feel like their turns all happen at once.

When a fight is right about to begin, the players will get about 5-10 seconds to privately decide what they're each going to do (unless they have the Song of Battle or something that stops time, of course). Each of them will have a paper tetrahedron with their options on each side: Power, Attack, Dodge, or Other. At the end of the short break, whatever side they have facing front will be what their character does that turn. Everything is presumed to happen simultaneously, and will be narrated in sequence clockwise starting with the character who has the highest Agility. If one player's plan is screwed up by something unexpected that just happened in another player's plan, they'll just have to adjust on the fly.

It's still pretty close to turn-based, but I'm hoping it feels simultaneous and immediate enough that they'll be hinging on each other's descriptions instead of just waiting to hear whether they guy they were gonna attack is dead yet when their turn comes along. I don't know if this will introduce a sense of chaotic action or just chaos, but I am considering giving it a try, and wondering whether anybody has alternatives they've tried.

Any feedback or other ideas? Lay ’em on me.

IMO your problem of boring combat is because of your usage of the system, not because of a structural problem of turnbased combat. Eg. I am playing savage worlds and combat is always tactical, fast and cinematic and NEVER gets boring. In fact we are looking forward to savage worlds sessions and its massive combat scenes because combat plays out really fun and extremely fast. So I recommend to try other rule systems if the one you use atm is boring for you. Sometimes a little bit experimenting rulewise is a good idea to fresh up the playing experience.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by enpeze

IMO your problem of boring combat is because of your usage of the system, not because of a structural problem of turnbased combat. Eg. I am playing savage worlds and combat is always tactical, fast and cinematic and NEVER gets boring. In fact we are looking forward to savage worlds sessions and its massive combat scenes because combat plays out really fun and extremely fast. So I recommend to try other rule systems if the one you use atm is boring for you. Sometimes a little bit experimenting rulewise is a good idea to fresh up the playing experience.

What is the Savage Worlds system like?

I have played Feng Shui. Maybe it was he person running it, but it was by far the most number-crunchy, methodical, rules-heavy combat system I'd ever had to play. I literally fell asleep waiting for my turn in two separate games of it, years apart. What I do like about the In Nomine system is that it involves a minimum of calculations on the fly. The best time my players and I have ever had with combat has been Castle Falkenstein, but that's not really a system you use when you're actually keeping track of hit points...

[Rocket Man]

I like In Nomine's system for sheer simplicity. The one drawback is that because of that simplicity, its combat system doesn't include the wide range of tactical options that (for example) GURPS might present. For the inexperienced, that can sometimes lead things back to the old-school "Swing. Hit. Roll for damage. Wait for next turn." And yeah, that can get dull.

The answer, to me, is to make tactical choices matter. For example:

1) Keep the setting in mind. You don't have to use a map if you don't want to, but make sure that every fight isn't on the equivalent of a large ballroom floor with no staircase. Warehouse boxes, fire escapes, even passersby can give friends and enemies alike a chance to try some different things.

2) Give your bad guys abilities that can change the battlefield. Can that Habbalite send a small mob charging at you? Can the Fire demon blow up a 16-wheeler between you and him? Is that Kobalite panicked enough to sprout Numinous Corpus: Wings and fly off, requiring an aerial pursuit?

3) Modify the mechanics. The ideas in your original post are a good start; if I can add one more thing, it would be "tradeoffs." For example, try writing the following on a set of index cards:

a) Hit the Deck! Take +4 to Dodge this turn, but no other actions allowed.

b) This One's Gotta Hit! Add up to +3 to a combat skill this turn, but subtract the same amount from the check digit and your Dodge score.

c) You're Going DOWN! Take up to -3 to a combat skill this turn, but add the same amount to the check digit. No Dodge allowed -- this is a haymaker.

d) Let's Rumble! Standard attack. No defense penalty.

e) Let's Move! Standard movement. No attack, no defense penalty.

f) Hold Him Off! Take up to -2 to a combat skill but add the same amount to your Dodge Score. (Think of a jab or similar cautious stance.)

g) Wait -- I've Got An Idea! Anything else not covered by the options -- invoking a Superior, using an unusual Attunement, etc.

Try writing these on index cards and giving them to your players (and these aren't meant to be exhaustive). You may find that even when it's not "their turn," they're still involved because they've got some different choices to consider, and that the combat gets a little more colorful.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

The answer, to me, is to make tactical choices matter. For example:

1) Keep the setting in mind. You don't have to use a map if you don't want to, but make sure that every fight isn't on the equivalent of a large ballroom floor with no staircase. Warehouse boxes, fire escapes, even passersby can give friends and enemies alike a chance to try some different things.

2) Give your bad guys abilities that can change the battlefield. Can that Habbalite send a small mob charging at you? Can the Fire demon blow up a 16-wheeler between you and him? Is that Kobalite panicked enough to sprout Numinous Corpus: Wings and fly off, requiring an aerial pursuit?

3) Modify the mechanics. The ideas in your original post are a good start; if I can add one more thing, it would be "tradeoffs." For example, try writing the following on a set of index cards(…)

Some great options in here. I think I made a wrong turn last time I ran a combat sequence by only throwing in demons whose "wild card" abilities presented severe logistical issues. (It sucks to be flung hours into the future by a Fate attunement when the game is basically progressing real-time.)

While I'm not a huge fan of D&D4e, I did notice that having all the different abilities on cards helped some of my newbies keep track of things. I'll have to keep this in mind. Perhaps I'll try out the tetrahedron for 4 "basic" maneuvers and give them cards to lay down to specify tactical modifiers and each of their Songs/attunements...

[JCD]

Hmm. Just saw an interview with John Wick. He has one game where combat is one turn. While the actual killing might take a while longer, generally the fight is over in about 10 seconds.

So, you roll a comparison of combat. You are either dancing on her bloody corpse or she is.

Expect players to be REALLY careful about fighting if you use this option.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by JCD

Hmm. Just saw an interview with John Wick. He has one game where combat is one turn. While the actual killing might take a while longer, generally the fight is over in about 10 seconds.

So, you roll a comparison of combat. You are either dancing on her bloody corpse or she is.

Expect players to be REALLY careful about fighting if you use this option.

Was that this interview?

I like the idea of the "dire peril" rule he describes here: Your players might lose an eye or something if they lose a fight, but they aren't really in danger of death unless the GM uses the words "dire peril."

I also like the idea of combat being short and sweet, of course, but it does kind of preclude narrating the sorts of knock-down, drag-out fights you see in many action movies. If you're going for an action movie aesthetic, there has got to be a way to simulate that in a collaborative RPG that doesn't just feel like most of the room is waiting for its turn and staring at iPhones or character sheets. I want everybody hinging upon every word here the same way they do when they're engaged in dialog that might lead to a fight.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Jason

I also like the idea of combat being short and sweet, of course, but it does kind of preclude narrating the sorts of knock-down, drag-out fights you see in many action movies. If you're going for an action movie aesthetic, there has got to be a way to simulate that in a collaborative RPG that doesn't just feel like most of the room is waiting for its turn and staring at iPhones or character sheets. I want everybody hinging upon every word here the same way they do when they're engaged in dialog that might lead to a fight.

Don't let players take their sweet time. Either you have something to do when it is your turn or you do nothing. Don't bother looking up rules during combat. Make a ruling, take a note and look it up later.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Don't let players take their sweet time. Either you have something to do when it is your turn or you do nothing. Don't bother looking up rules during combat. Make a ruling, take a note and look it up later.

I'm just hoping to find a way to make it fast by design, rather than fast because I'm rushing them. I have a couple of newbies to RPGs and combat either bores them or makes them anxious, and I'd like to not encourage "bad anxiety" by just telling everyone to go faster, you know? But yeah, I do need to tell the more deliberative players to kick it in gear.